Joined: 18 Sep 2011 Posts: 13 Location: In His hands
Posted: Mon Sep 19, 2011 2:17 am Post subject: The Triune God & The Witness Factor
Quote:
Q: There isn't a single passage of the scriptures you have posted that support a triune Godhead.
Before we begin, I would like to insist on using the King James Bible as the final authority on the scripture: otherwise, we will get nowhere in edifying one another in this discussion.
Examine this reference of how God spoke for the act of creation in a plural sense and then when God performed the act, He did so in a singular sense.
Genesis 1: 26And God said, Let us make man in our image, after our likeness: and let them have dominion over the fish of the sea, and over the fowl of the air, and over the cattle, and over all the earth, and over every creeping thing that creepeth upon the earth. 27So God created man in his own image, in the image of God created he him; male and female created he them.
Now consider the witness factor for every word to be established and for giving judgment.
Deuteronomy 17:6At the mouth of two witnesses, or three witnesses, shall he that is worthy of death be put to death; but at the mouth of one witness he shall not be put to death.
Deuteronomy 19:15One witness shall not rise up against a man for any iniquity, or for any sin, in any sin that he sinneth: at the mouth of two witnesses, or at the mouth of three witnesses, shall the matter be established.
Matthew 18:16But if he will not hear thee, then take with thee one or two more, that in the mouth of two or three witnesses every word may be established.
2 Corinthians 13:1This is the third time I am coming to you. In the mouth of two or three witnesses shall every word be established.
1 Timothy 5:19Against an elder receive not an accusation, but before two or three witnesses.
Hebrews 10:28He that despised Moses' law died without mercy under two or three witnesses:
So what is the importance of that? Why does God insist on how people judge? Why does He insist on two or three witnesses for a word to be established?
Could it be that is how God performed in the act of creation? Could this be how the word spoken was established?
1 John 5: 7For there are three that bear record in heaven, the Father, the Word, and the Holy Ghost: and these three are one.
Genesis 1: 26And God said, Let us make man in our image, after our likeness: and let them have dominion over the fish of the sea, and over the fowl of the air, and over the cattle, and over all the earth, and over every creeping thing that creepeth upon the earth. 27So God created man in his own image, in the image of God created he him; male and female created he them. _________________ A divided hope ceases to be that singular hope. Let nothing divide your hope in Jesus Christ.
Your reasoning is not consistant. You are talking about two or three winesses yet you say Fahter, Son and HS make make one God. You are talking about one now, not two or three witnesses. _________________ YHWH is my God and Jesus is my Lord
Joined: 18 Sep 2011 Posts: 13 Location: In His hands
Posted: Mon Sep 19, 2011 4:03 pm Post subject:
joyful wrote:
Enow,
Your reasoning is not consistant. You are talking about two or three winesses yet you say Fahter, Son and HS make make one God. You are talking about one now, not two or three witnesses.
I know that this topic cannot be achieved by reasoning only because the same can be said about the other side of the coin in this discussion.
I am saying both just as plainly as the Bible says both. The Three are One. To zoom in on the One in that verse to ignore the acknowledgement of the Three as being One is not being consistent.
For God's word to be established in creation: there had to be two or three witnesses as required by His words to Israel for judging and for establishing a word. As God taught so as He does.
Isaiah 55:7Let the wicked forsake his way, and the unrighteous man his thoughts: and let him return unto the LORD, and he will have mercy upon him; and to our God, for he will abundantly pardon. 8For my thoughts are not your thoughts, neither are your ways my ways, saith the LORD. 9For as the heavens are higher than the earth, so are my ways higher than your ways, and my thoughts than your thoughts.
This is a delicate issue that requires wisdom from the Lord.
Consider this: God is judge, right?
Job 21:22Shall any teach God knowledge? seeing he judgeth those that are high.
Job 31:28This also were an iniquity to be punished by the judge: for I should have denied the God that is above.
Psalm 7:11God judgeth the righteous, and God is angry with the wicked every day.
Psalm 50:6And the heavens shall declare his righteousness: for God is judge himself. Selah
Psalm 58:11So that a man shall say, Verily there is a reward for the righteous: verily he is a God that judgeth in the earth.
So we have established by His word that God is judge, right?
Now read this:
John 5: 22For the Father judgeth no man, but hath committed all judgment unto the Son: 23That all men should honour the Son, even as they honour the Father. He that honoureth not the Son honoureth not the Father which hath sent him.
So what does that mean? That the Father is not God? No. It does not, but if we continue with this line of reasoning about being consistent, then without His help, we will never come to the knowledge of the Truth.
As you have said in your PM to me in the other fourm: it is not so cut and dried, so the claim of consistency has to have merit on both side of the discussion, and if they have claim on both sides of the discussion as it is in this case, then the Three are One are witnesses of the Triune God. _________________ A divided hope ceases to be that singular hope. Let nothing divide your hope in Jesus Christ.
As you have said in your PM to me in the other fourm: it is not so cut and dried, so the claim of consistency has to have merit on both side of the discussion, and if they have claim on both sides of the discussion as it is in this case, then the Three are One are witnesses of the Triune God.
I misphraised. What I really meant was that I cannot explain simply about one true God. All I know is that OT it clear on who the Father is and He says He is one true God over and over. You cannot find the Scirptures says Father, Son and HS make one true God.
Do you know that Trinity is passed by RCC? Do you know that Jesus says we know them by their fruit? RCC has a history of being violent and the rest of the protestant are following her traits by approving to kill their enemies. Why do you think trin churches are so corrupt? Becaseu they are not of God. You should not accomodate and adopt their doctrines.
I am suprrized that you dont take a heed of Jesus' warnings.
Most trinity churches are either RCC or Calvine followers. They made up tons of dotrines of their own and Trinity is just another one of them.
Do you know that John Calvine requested to RCC to behead non-trin? This kind of violent practice is their fruit. You see, they even approve to kill their enemy. The military practice is of devil. _________________ YHWH is my God and Jesus is my Lord
Joined: 18 Sep 2011 Posts: 13 Location: In His hands
Posted: Tue Sep 20, 2011 1:03 pm Post subject:
joyful wrote:
Enow wrote:
As you have said in your PM to me in the other fourm: it is not so cut and dried, so the claim of consistency has to have merit on both side of the discussion, and if they have claim on both sides of the discussion as it is in this case, then the Three are One are witnesses of the Triune God.
I misphraised. What I really meant was that I cannot explain simply about one true God. All I know is that OT it clear on who the Father is and He says He is one true God over and over. You cannot find the Scirptures says Father, Son and HS make one true God.
Do you know that Trinity is passed by RCC? Do you know that Jesus says we know them by their fruit? RCC has a history of being violent and the rest of the protestant are following her traits by approving to kill their enemies. Why do you think trin churches are so corrupt? Becaseu they are not of God. You should not accomodate and adopt their doctrines.
I am suprrized that you dont take a heed of Jesus' warnings.
.
Jesus warning is that the fruit of the false prophet is ecumenical by its gathering of grapes of thorns and figs of thistles.
They broadened the way in the worship place by including the worship of the Holy Spirit as a means to honour and glorify God the Faher while ignoring the role of the Holy Spirit as a Witness would exclude the Spirit from being honoured and worshipped when God is reconciling the world to Himself through Himself as only God the Father can through His Son.
By broadening the way to include the worship of the Spirit, the ruidments in the world in how they worship other spirits and seek after them can be brought into christianity and their spirits will be adopted as the "Holy Spirit" which they are not. That is why all invitations in coming to God the Father is through the Son. You come to God The Father by coming to the Son of God as that is what the Spirit of God in us is pointing us still to go to in having that reconciled relationship with God through the Bridegroom: the Son Jesus Christ.
The RCC helped form the Nicene creed, taking a truth about the Holy Spirit as God and assumed without scriptural support and actually going against scripture: ( John 5:22-23 & John 13:31-32 ) of including the worship of the Holy Spirit with the Father and the Son.
So I believe in the Triune God, because Jesus is God, but it is by His grace that I do not err by losing focus of my first love by chasing after a supernatural phenomenon for a sign, thinking it is the Holy Spirit when it is not because Jesus said we will know Him because He dwells within us.
As this is about the Witness of the Triune God: God the Father spoke at the Son of God's baptism, testifying of Him but His word alone in according to His word was not enough as the Holy Spirit descended unto the Son in the form of a dove to bear witness as well so that the Word has been established that Jesus is God as in the Son of God.
That is why He was crucified for telling the truth. _________________ A divided hope ceases to be that singular hope. Let nothing divide your hope in Jesus Christ.
Joined: 18 Sep 2011 Posts: 13 Location: In His hands
Posted: Wed Sep 21, 2011 12:34 am Post subject:
joyful wrote:
Enow wrote:
[
Jesus warning is that the fruit of the false prophet is ecumenical by its gathering of grapes of thorns and figs of thistles.
Jesus warns many.
I am sorry to cut so many of your post in my reply. I would like to discuss one at a time.
thanks
I know you love Jesus, but please ask the Father to reveal His Son to you. _________________ A divided hope ceases to be that singular hope. Let nothing divide your hope in Jesus Christ.
[quI know you love Jesus, but please ask the Father to reveal His Son to you.
You dont seem to know the basic of Christianity. Basic principle of Christianity is to follow Jesus, meaning practice what He teaches and commands. You sound very much the same as corrupt mainstream churches.
Jesus tells us that we know them by their fruit. And you are adopting their mentality. You should come out of it.
Which church do you attenad, Enow? _________________ YHWH is my God and Jesus is my Lord
Joined: 18 Sep 2011 Posts: 13 Location: In His hands
Posted: Wed Sep 21, 2011 11:35 pm Post subject:
joyful wrote:
Enow wrote:
[quI know you love Jesus, but please ask the Father to reveal His Son to you.
You dont seem to know the basic of Christianity. Basic principle of Christianity is to follow Jesus, meaning practice what He teaches and commands. You sound very much the same as corrupt mainstream churches.
Jesus tells us that we know them by their fruit. And you are adopting their mentality. You should come out of it.
Which church do you attenad, Enow?
None. I have withdrawn my membership from the Presbytery.
The christianity that you espouse is the same christianity that mainstream churches espouses: it is about YOU and what YOU do.
Real christianity is about What Jesus has done, is doing, and will do as His faithful followers would be testiying of Him in seeking His glory to the glory of God the Father.
When I was going to my church, I heard this member saying to a group of three men that ever since he made a commitment to follow Christ, the devil was after him to break it ever since. He said living the christian life is hard. Then he said that little children should not make a commitment to Christ because they do not know what they are getting themselves into.
That should have been a red flag for me to wake up, but the Lord had to let me continue as I was, blind, until I made the covenant with my mouth not to cuss: then I came to the end of myself when I realize by His grace and by His help what God was doing when He made the New Covenant: He will do it: and all that He asked from me is to believe in the One Whom He has sent.
If you and I cannot save ourselves by the deeds of the law to make ourselves His and to make us follow Him, then this goes to show that we need Jesus Christ as Our Saviour and Good Shepherd as only the just shall live by faith.
Imagine yourself going back in time, asking Jesus what you are to do to follow Him: to do God's work in them and around them.
John 6:28Then said they unto him, What shall we do, that we might work the works of God? 29Jesus answered and said unto them, This is the work of God, that ye believe on him whom he hath sent.
Philippians 1:6Being confident of this very thing, that he which hath begun a good work in you will perform it until the day of Jesus Christ:
So here the call to the religious people of the world.
Matthew 11:25At that time Jesus answered and said, I thank thee, O Father, Lord of heaven and earth, because thou hast hid these things from the wise and prudent, and hast revealed them unto babes. 26Even so, Father: for so it seemed good in thy sight. 27All things are delivered unto me of my Father: and no man knoweth the Son, but the Father; neither knoweth any man the Father, save the Son, and he to whomsoever the Son will reveal him. 28Come unto me, all ye that labour and are heavy laden, and I will give you rest. 29Take my yoke upon you, and learn of me; for I am meek and lowly in heart: and ye shall find rest unto your souls. 30For my yoke is easy, and my burden is light.
That man that testified that little children should not make a commitment to the Lord is now a pastor, telling his congregation to lead sinners into making a commitment and God will do the rest...which is the doubleminded thing to do. Either you believe He will help you follow Him or .. you are looking to yourself to follow Him by keeping that commitment to do so.
So again, I am not saying we do not follow Him: I am saying HOW we are to follow Him: not by religioulsy keeping our commitment otherwise what difference is that with those keeping the law to be justified and to follow God by? We follow Him by faith, knowing that His standard is higher than the works of the law and thus why God has to help us to follow Him as He does His work in us to do so. I live by faith in Him.
The churches today are speaking of their commitments to follow Him, and they are not doing it: nobody can do it: otherwise the Jews would have been able to keep the law, but they didn't and neother will believers if they think God has confidence in their ability to keep that commitment to follow Him.
Trust Him as a child would because of this warning He gives.
Mark 10: 13And they brought young children to him, that he should touch them: and his disciples rebuked those that brought them. 14But when Jesus saw it, he was much displeased, and said unto them, Suffer the little children to come unto me, and forbid them not: for of such is the kingdom of God. 15Verily I say unto you, Whosoever shall not receive the kingdom of God as a little child, he shall not enter therein.
Billy Graham Crusades led all believers across all denomenations to make a commitment to Christ and/or to follow Christ to get the assuarnces for their salvation by keeping it: The Graham Association redirected all Catholics that came forward back to their church or their local Catholic church near them.
That commitment altar call as it is being used is ecumenical in its gathering of grapes of thorns and figs of thistles and THAT IS THE FRUIT OF THE FALSE PROPHET.
Whatever is not of faith... is sin. If we do not follow Him by faith... and we speak of following Him by our commitment: then it is sin, because it is a false testimony of a religious man.... and yet we are called to be witnesses of the Son in our lives which is why we followHim by faith. _________________ A divided hope ceases to be that singular hope. Let nothing divide your hope in Jesus Christ.
The christianity that you espouse is the same christianity that mainstream churches espouses: it is about YOU and what YOU do.
You are wrong. The mainstream churches pushes their churches and their doctrines, and not about Jesus. And you don't seem to honor Jesus and His teachings and commandments which Jesus commands us to obey. You are very much mainstream. I don't see any difference. _________________ YHWH is my God and Jesus is my Lord
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