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Baptism

 
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joyful



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PostPosted: Sun Sep 21, 2008 8:33 pm    Post subject: Baptism Reply with quote

The Scripture Testimony on Baptism

The Jewish ritual contained various formulas respecting <PAGE 432> the cleansing of vessels and washing and sprinkling of unclean persons, etc., but nothing respecting baptism (baptizo, immersion) such as John preached in the end of the Jewish age. John's baptism was for Jews only, who were already recognized as typically cleansed by the Atonement-day sin offerings. To these John's baptism signified repentance from recognized sin, violations of the Law Covenant, and a typical cleansing from them--a return to a condition of righteousness of heart or desire. Jews thus repenting of sin and symbolically cleansed, or washed, were counted as restored to a condition of harmony with God, previously enjoyed under their Law Covenant. The motive back of John's preaching and baptizing was a preparation of the people for the Kingdom of God and for a revelation of Messiah, which John's preaching declared to be imminent, and for which the people would need to be in a condition of heart-readiness if they would receive an appropriate blessing. Every Jew under the Law Covenant was counted a member of the house of Moses: "They were all baptized unto Moses in the sea and in the cloud." (`1 Cor. 10:2`) The house of Moses was a house of servants, as it is written, "Moses was faithful over all his house as a servant." (`Heb. 3:5`) Under the divine arrangement, whoever would be faithful as a member of the typical Israel or house of servants under Moses, the Mediator of the typical or Law Covenant, would thus be in such a condition of readiness of heart that when the antitypical Moses, the Messiah, Christ, appeared, they would be ready to receive him as the antitypical Moses. As they were baptized into Moses in the sea and in the cloud, the acceptance of Christ as instead of Moses would imply that they were in Christ as members of his body, under him as their head, and, through association with him, ministers of the New Covenant, of which the complete, glorified Christ, head and body, will be the Mediator.

Hence, John did not baptize his believers into Christ, but merely unto repentance, bringing them back to a condition of harmony with Moses, etc., in which condition, as natural branches in the olive tree (`Rom. 11:16-21`) they would not <PAGE 433> need ingrafting into Christ, for Christ would to them take the place of Moses, who for the time merely typified Christ. Let it be remembered, too, that this, called "John's baptism" and said to be unto repentance and remission of sins, and "washing away of sin," was not applicable to any except Jews--because Gentiles, not being baptized into Moses, and not being of the typical house of servants at any time, could not by repentance of sin come back to a condition which they had never occupied. Gentiles who believed into Christ must, therefore, be inducted into his house of sons in a different manner. They, as the Apostle explains, were the wild olive branches, "by nature children of wrath," strangers, aliens, foreigners from the commonwealth of Israel. No amount of repentance and reformation would make these strangers and aliens members of the typical house of servants, to whom alone would come the privilege of passing by faith in Christ from the house of servants into the antitypical house of sons. If others would become branches in the olive tree (Christ), whose root was the Abrahamic promise (`Gal. 3:16,29`), they must be ingrafted into the places left vacant by the breaking off of the "natural branches" of the original olive tree--the house of servants, whose hearts were not in a proper condition to accept the Messiah, and who therefore, could not be accepted of him as members of his house of sons. "He came unto his own [people, Israel], and his own [as a people] received him not; but to as many as received him, to them gave he liberty [privilege] to become the sons of God, even to as many as believe on his name; who were begotten, not of the will of the flesh, nor of the will of man, but of God"--and who thus became members of the New Creation--spiritually. `John 1:12`

Typical Israel forsook Egypt (symbolical of the world) to follow the leadings of Moses; and when they came to the great test or trial at the Red Sea, which would have meant their destruction, except for God's intervention through Moses, they were all typically baptized into Moses in the sea and in the cloud--the sea on either hand, the cloud above them--and became his house, or family, represented <PAGE 434> by him as their head. They emerged from the sea devoted to Moses, pledged to follow and obey him. They were still further pledged to him as the Mediator of the Law Covenant at Mount Sinai, and all of their hopes were bound up in him who declared--"A prophet shall the Lord your God raise up unto you from amongst your brethren, like unto me; him shall ye hear." (`Deut. 18:15,18`; `Acts 3:22`) To every "Israelite indeed," already thus consecrated and bound to Moses even unto death, and with all their hopes of life anchored in him, it was but a small remove to accept Christ in his stead, and as his antitype; and to understand that their pledges under the Law to Moses were now transferred by divine arrangement to Christ, the surety of the New Covenant which they engaged to serve. `2 Cor. 3:6`

With the Gentiles the matter was altogether different, and their acceptance of Christ would properly signify all that was covenanted by the Jew to Moses and subsequently transferred to Christ. It should not surprise us, therefore, to find the Scriptures teaching a very much wider and deeper meaning to baptism as applied to those believers who were not Jews, not under the Law, not in Moses, and not, therefore, transferred from Moses to Christ. To these baptism meant all the radical change that is pictured by the Apostle Paul (`Rom. 11`) by the ingrafting of the wild olive branches into the good olive tree. It meant a complete transformation.


Freyd linked me to this and make sense to me.
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PostPosted: Sun Sep 21, 2008 8:38 pm    Post subject: Reply with quote

Baptism into Christ's Death

"Know ye not that so many of us as were baptized into Jesus Christ were baptized into his death?

"Therefore we are buried with him by baptism into death: that like as Christ was raised up from the dead by the glory of the Father, even so we also should walk in newness of life.

"For if we have been planted together in the likeness of his death, we shall be also in the likeness of his resurrection." `Rom. 6:3-5`

We, who are by nature Gentiles, cannot do better than accept this very complete explanation of the true baptism addressed by the Apostle Paul to the believers at Rome-- many, if not all, of whom had been Gentiles, "children of <PAGE 435> wrath." In three verses here the Apostle deals most thoroughly with the subject of baptism as it applies to us. These verses are very generally used to prove all the various doctrines of baptism, but quoted especially by our brethren who recognize baptism as signifying immersion in water. Let it be clearly noticed, however, that the Apostle makes not one word of reference to water baptism. Water baptism is merely a symbol, or picture of the real baptism; and the Apostle, in these verses explains, from various standpoints, the true, the essential baptism, without which no one can be considered a member of the body, or Church of Christ, while all who receive this baptism, of whatever name or place, color or sex, are to be counted as members of the Ecclesia, members of the New Creation.

The Apostle is addressing those who are already members of Christ. He says: "Know ye not that so many of us as were baptized into Jesus Christ"--we pause here to notice that he does not say, So many of us as were sprinkled with water, nor, So many of us as were immersed in water, but, "So many of us as were baptized [immersed] into Jesus Christ." What is it to be immersed into Jesus Christ? Surely he here is carrying out the same thought that he elaborates in `1 Cor. 12:27`: "Now ye are the body of Christ, and members in particular." How do we get into the body of Christ? The Apostle answers that we were baptized into it, and, hence, are now counted as members of our Lord, members under him as our Head, members of "the Church which is his body."

But let us inquire particularly what was the process by which we came into membership in Christ Jesus. The Apostle answers the question in his next statement, "So many of us as were baptized into Jesus Christ were baptized into his death." Not a word about our being baptized into him by being baptized into water. No, no! How evident it is that if we were baptized a thousand times in water it would not bring us into membership in the body of Christ! But, accepting the Apostle's statement, we realize that our union with Christ, our membership in his Church or Ecclesia, <PAGE 436> whose names are written in heaven, dated from the time that we were baptized into his death. But, when and how were we baptized into the Lord's death? We answer that this baptism into death with the Lord, this overwhelming, or burial of ourselves, our flesh, which resulted in our incorporation by him as members of his body, as New Creatures, took place at the moment when we made the full surrender of our wills to him--consecrating our all, to follow and obey him, even unto death.

The will represents the entire person, and all that he possesses. The will has the control of the body, hands, feet, eyes and mouth and brain. It has the control, too, of the pocket, the bank account, the real estate. It controls our time, our talent, our influence. There is not a thing of value that we possess which does not properly come under the control of the will; and, hence, when we surrender our wills to the Lord, or, as the Scriptures sometimes represent it, our "hearts," we give him our all, and this burial of our human will into the will of Christ is our death as human beings. "Ye are dead; and your life is hid with Christ in God." (`Col. 3:3`) This death, this burial, is our baptism into his death. Henceforth, from the divine standpoint, we are not to count ourselves as human beings, of human nature, of the earth, earthy, and as having earthly aims, objects and hopes, but as New Creatures in Christ Jesus.

The instant of this burial or immersion of our wills into the will of Christ is followed by our begetting to newness of life--to a new nature. As our Lord consecrated his human nature unto death, in the doing of the Father's will, and yet did not remain in death, but was raised from the dead to a newness of nature, so we who thus in consecration become "dead with him," sharing in his consecration, are not left in a death state, but may instantly rise through faith to a realization of our kinship to the Lord as New Creatures. Thus the Apostle declares: "Ye are not in the flesh, but in the Spirit, if so be that the Spirit of Christ dwell in you." (`Rom. 8:9`) To the world all this is a "hidden mystery."43 They do <PAGE 437> not appreciate our faith-justification in the Father's sight, but regard us as other men, who are yet in their sins. Likewise, they see no reason why we should sacrifice or consecrate our wills to the Lord--to be dead as human beings, that we may have a share with him as New Creatures. Neither do they see our consecration and its acceptance, nor appreciate our figurative resurrection to newness of life, newness of hopes, newness of ambitions, newness of relationship to God through Christ. We trust, indeed, that they may see some fruitage in our lives, but we cannot hope that it will be such fruitage as will to them appear to be good or wise or profitable under present conditions. "The world knoweth us not [as New Creatures] because it knew him not." `1 John 3:1`

In all this believers are but following the footsteps of Jesus--taking up their cross to follow him. Being holy, harmless, undefiled, and separate from the sinner-race, he needed not to wait for any sacrifice for sins, for he "knew no sin"--but immediately on reaching the age of manhood under the Law (thirty years) he hastened to make a complete consecration of himself, a full sacrifice of all his earthly interests, hopes, ambitions and desires--that he might do the Father's will only. The language of his heart, as he came to John at Jordan, was prophetically foretold, "Lo I come--in the volume of the book it is written of me--to do thy will, O God. I delight to do thy will, O my God; thy law is written in my heart." (`Psa. 40:7,8`; `Heb. 10:7`) Our Lord, thus consecrating himself to the Father's will, realized that his outward baptism symbolized the surrender of his earthly life and nature, already immersed, or buried, into the Father's will--even unto death. His water immersion was merely a symbolical representation of the baptism, or burial of his will, which had preceded it. From this standpoint his baptism was full of meaning to him, though not to John, who greatly marveled that he who "knew no sin" should be baptized, whereas the baptism of John was a baptism only for transgressors against the Law Covenant--for the remission of sins.

None but our Lord Jesus himself understood fully why it <PAGE 438> thus "behooved" him to fulfil all righteousness. None but he realized that while such an immersion (figurative cleansing from sin) was not necessary for him, as though he were a sinner, yet it behooved him who was the prospective Head of the prospective body, to set an example in himself that would be appropriate as a lesson full of meaning to all of his followers--not only to those "body" members which were of the house of Israel after the flesh, but to those members also who were still aliens and strangers and foreigners. It behooved him to symbolize the full consecration of his will and all that he had, even unto death, that we, coming after, might follow in his steps.

That our Lord did not receive the water immersion at the hands of John as the real immersion, but merely as its figure, or illustration, can be readily demonstrated. In evidence mark his words about the time of the last Supper. "I have a baptism to be baptized with, and how am I straitened until it be accomplished!" (`Luke 12:50`) Here our Lord shows that his baptism was not the water baptism, but the death baptism--baptism into death, in harmony with the divine arrangement--as man's redemption price, or sin-offering.

Having consecrated himself to this death-baptism at the earliest possible moment, when he attained thirty years of age, and having during the three and a half years of his ministry carefully carried out the provisions of that consecration --"dying daily," pouring out his soul unto death-- using up his life, his energy, his strength, in the service of the Father, in the service of his followers and, in a large sense, in the service of his enemies. Finally, realizing himself near the close of this death-baptism, when it would be fully accomplished, and feeling the weights, the trials, the difficulties, growing heavier and heavier each moment, and having not a sympathizer--"Of the people there were none with him"--not one who understood the circumstances and conditions, and who could share his grief by offer of sympathy, encouragement or consolation--then longing for the end of the trial he exclaimed, "How am I straitened [in difficulty] <PAGE 439> till it [my death-baptism] be accomplished!" (`Luke 12:50`) His baptism was fulfilled very shortly after, when he died, crying--"It is finished!"

The whole world is dying, and not merely the Lord and the Church, his body; but the world does not participate in Christ's death, as does the Church, his body. There is a great difference. The whole world is dead with father Adam under his sentence or curse; but our Lord Jesus was not of the world, not one of those who died in Adam. We have already seen that his life was holy and separate from that of all sinners, notwithstanding his earthly mother44--that he was not under condemnation. Why, then, did he die? The Scriptures answer that he "died for our sins"--that his death was a sacrificial one. And so it is with the Church, his body, baptized into him by baptism into his death--participators with him in his sacrificial death. By nature children of Adam, "children of wrath, even as others," they are first justified out of Adamic death unto life, through faith in our Lord Jesus and his redemptive work; and the very object of that justification to life out of Adamic condemnation to death, is that they may have this privilege of being baptized into Jesus Christ (made members of his body, his Ecclesia) by being baptized into his death--by sharing death with him as joint-sacrificers. Ah! What a wide difference there is between being dead in Adam, and being dead in Christ!

This mystery of our relationship to Christ in sacrifice, in death-baptism now, and the resulting relationship and union with him in the glory that is to follow, is incomprehensible to the world. It should, however, be appreciated by the Lord's faithful, and is asseverated repeatedly in the Scriptures. "If we suffer with him, we shall reign with him"; "if we be dead with him, we shall also live with him." We are "heirs of God, and joint-heirs with Jesus Christ, if so be that we suffer with him [if we experience death-baptism with him as his body members] that we may be also glorified together." `2 Tim. 2:12`; `Rom. 6:8; 8:17` <PAGE 440>

In the fourth verse of the text we are examining, the Apostle repeats the same thought from another standpoint, saying--"Therefore are we buried with him by baptism into death." Again no suggestion of water baptism, but a most positive statement of death-baptism, our consecration unto death. Proceeding, the Apostle carries forward the picture, stating the wherefore or reason of our baptism into Christ's death, saying, "Like as Christ was raised up from the dead by the glory of the Father, even so we also should walk in newness of life." Only indirectly does the Apostle here refer to our share in the First Resurrection, when we shall share the glory of our Lord in his Kingdom: he refers chiefly to the present life. All who make full consecration of their lives to the Lord, to be dead with him, to be joint-sacrificers with him in the service of the Truth, are to reckon themselves while living in the world as being separate and distinct from others around them. They convenant to die to earthly things which so engross others, and may, therefore, use them only as servants to the New Creation. New Creatures become alive through the Redeemer to heavenly things and prospects, which the world around us see not, understand not. In harmony with this our lives in the world should be new, distinct, separate from those of others about us; because we are animated with the new spirit, the new hopes, the new aims, the heavenly.

Coming to the fifth verse, the Apostle still makes not the slightest reference to water baptism, although some, at first, might think otherwise of his words: "For if we have been planted together in the likeness of his death, we shall be also in the likeness of his resurrection." If this being planted together in the likeness of his death be understood to mean water baptism, it would be laying more stress upon water baptism than any teacher in the world would be willing to admit. What is it that as Christians we most earnestly hope for? Is it not that we may share in the Lord's resurrection, the First Resurrection? The Apostle expressed this as the grand ideal and hope before his mind, saying--"That I might know him and the power of his resurrection [as a member <PAGE 441> of his body, his Church], and the fellowship of his sufferings, being made conformable unto his death--if by any means I might attain unto the resurrection of the dead." (`Phil. 3:10,11`) Now to understand `Romans 6:5` to mean that a share in Christ's resurrection would be the sure result of an immersion in water would be to make this passage contradict every other passage, and to outrage reason. Why should a planting, or burial, in water result in a share in the First Resurrection? We are safe in assuming that thousands have been planted, or buried, or immersed, in water who will never share in the First Resurrection--the Christ Resurrection.

But when we understand this verse, in harmony with the two preceding it, to refer to baptism into death, to planting in death, in the likeness of Christ's death, then all is plain, all is reasonable. Having been called of the Lord to be joint-heirs with his Son, and to suffer with him and to be dead with him, to live with him and to reign with him, how sure we may feel that if we are faithful to this call, if we are planted or buried into his death, like as he was buried into death--as faithful soldiers of God and servants of the Truth--we shall eventually get the full reward which God promises to such, viz., a share in the First Resurrection--to glory, honor and immortality.

Baptism into death is the real baptism for the Church, as it was the real baptism for our Lord; water baptism is only the symbol, or picture of it to us, as it was to him. This is conclusively shown by our Lord's words to two of his disciples, James and John, who requested that they might have his promise that eventually they should sit with him, the one on his right hand and the other on his left hand in the Kingdom. Our Lord's answer to them was, "Ye know not what ye ask. Are ye able to be baptized with the baptism that I am [being] baptized with?" Their avowal of their willingness to share, not only his ignominy but also his baptism into death, our Lord approvingly answers, "Ye shall indeed drink of the cup that I drink of, and be baptized with the baptism that I am baptized with." (`Mark 10:35-39`) <PAGE 442> Whoever of his called ones are willing at heart for these experiences, the Lord will grant them the privilege-- and also his assistance. Such shall indeed be immersed into Christ's death, and, as a consequence, have a share with him in the First Resurrection and in the Kingdom glories appertaining thereto. That our Lord here made no reference to water baptism is evident; for these two disciples had been with him from the beginning of his ministry, and as his representatives had been baptizing multitudes in water, "unto repentance and remission of sins"--John's baptism. (`John 3:22,23; 4:1,2`; `Mark 1:4`) Our Lord's inquiry respecting their willingness for a share in his baptism was not misunderstood by the apostles. They had no thought that he wished them to be baptized again in water; they understood well that it was the baptism of their wills into his will and the Father's will, and accordingly their participation with him in his sacrifice--dying daily, laying down their lives for the brethren, to the finish, unto death actual.
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freyd



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PostPosted: Tue Sep 23, 2008 11:02 am    Post subject: Reply with quote

Glad you thought this worthy of posting, Hitomi. Here's the link http://bibletoday.com/V6/volumesix_S10.htm

But there are a couple of questions all of this raises.

To begin with, what was the purpose of Jesus baptism

He obviously had no sin, so there was nothing to be washed away. So it had to symbolize something else, besides a heart condition. I believe it was an anti-typical fulfillment related to Aaron, the high priest, who had to be washed, as did his sons, before any would be acceptable servants. And of course, Jesus to be an acceptable sacrifice as high priest. This baptism obviously does not apply to all who were merely "wild olive branches" and were thus made Israelites. There is an insight into this thinking in Paul's letter to the Colossians where he addresses "Saints and faithful brethren." All were not baptized into death and all were not anti-typical Levites, the tribe from whom the priests were selected. But as it says in Rev 7, there are 12,000 from each of the tribes and then a Great Company. Just a couple of thoughts.
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PostPosted: Tue Sep 23, 2008 1:08 pm    Post subject: Reply with quote

Quote:
To begin with, what was the purpose of Jesus baptism


I think Jesus did this for all of us who is accepting His offering of forgiveness of our sins.
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PostPosted: Tue Sep 23, 2008 3:22 pm    Post subject: Reply with quote

Clearly Jesus was setting some kind of example for true followers. Why would simply not partaking of bread and wine be sufficient to demonstrate appreciation, thus proclaiming his death? What does water have to do with it? What is the Scriptural precedent?
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PostPosted: Tue Sep 23, 2008 3:45 pm    Post subject: Reply with quote

You have to tell me what you think because I don't have much idea of this sort of things.
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PostPosted: Tue Sep 23, 2008 4:06 pm    Post subject: Reply with quote

I'm just trying to get a handle on your understanding, and others if there are any. There is much symbolism in the Bible and it is presented in symbols for specific people, which is the reason Jesus taught in parables, so that those who really wanted to know would investigate further and be guided by Holy Spirit to the deeper things, which obviously has been lost in churches that call themselves Christian, but are for all intents and purposes, pagan in their practices, and thinking eg, Easter.
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PostPosted: Tue Sep 23, 2008 5:27 pm    Post subject: Reply with quote

Ok, go on Smile
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PostPosted: Tue Sep 23, 2008 5:44 pm    Post subject: Reply with quote

http://bibletoday.com/index.htm
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PostPosted: Tue Sep 23, 2008 5:51 pm    Post subject: Reply with quote

Hey!!!!

You cheat! You can give me simplified version.
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PostPosted: Tue Sep 23, 2008 5:55 pm    Post subject: Reply with quote

Our purpose is not to reform or expose the evils of the world. It is to offer hope.
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PostPosted: Tue Sep 23, 2008 6:07 pm    Post subject: Reply with quote

freyd wrote:
Our purpose is not to reform or expose the evils of the world. It is to offer hope.


we are talking about baptism.
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