[dondobo]
Here is something you might wish to consider, Interpretum. IMO, John doesn't merely get a vision of heaven, but he gets a vision of heaven in the future.
Take note of 5:10 again.
10 You have made them to be a kingdom and priests to serve our God,
and they will reign on the earth.”
Now the first statement is clearly past tense. The Lamb has already made them to be a kingdom and priests. Doesn't this happen after they get to heaven? That would mean that they are already there (and 14:1-5 appears to confirm this).
The second phrase, IMO, is a mistranslation in most Bibles. The Greek verb rendered "they will reign" is BASILEUOUSIN, which is a present tense form. The future tense form is BASILEUSOUSIN (note the extra 's'), which is used in Rev. 20:6.
Now it is true that the present form can be used with a future meaning. This happens in English, too, as in the following sentence: "I am going to school tomorrow." But I would suggest that the present tense actually makes more sense:
"You have made them to be a kingdom and priests to serve our God,
and they are reigning over the earth."
(I say "over the earth" because they are clearly in heaven.)
[interpretum]
Maybe. I say "maybe", because there doesn't really seem to be any other support for this, other than that one disputed word.
To me, there is more of a "timeless" element to Revelation 5. We know it's after the Lamb has been slain, is in heaven, and has purchased men for a kingdom, priests and rulership.
There is another disputed word in this same passage. Some translations read "them" as "us"! i.e.
"And hast made us unto our God kings and priests: and we shall reign on the earth."
That would mean the 24 elders are the ones who are reigning!
Of course, this goes to the heart of just who the 24 elders are. I know JWs equate these with the 144,000... but I am more inclined to take them as 24 in number, for reasons I spelled out earlier.
So if the alternative rendering (of "us" instead of "them") is correct... these 24 elders are part of those who have been redeemed!
So while we could debate this for quite some time, I don't think there is a dramatically compelling case for saying this is future.
It could be, in some way, that the 24 elders are talking about themselves, and their rulership.
It's just a question of working out who they are.
Remember that Paul said, near the end of his ministry, that a crown was reserved for him in heaven. And Jesus, early on, promised his 12 apostles that they would sit on 12 thrones, judging the tribes of Israel.
6:1 I watched as the Lamb opened the first of the seven seals. Then I heard one of the four living creatures say in a voice like thunder, “Come!” 2 I looked, and there before me was a white horse! Its rider held a bow, and he was given a crown, and he rode out as a conqueror bent on conquest.
And so the first of the so-called "Four Horsemen Of the Apocalypse" are released - a part of the book of Revelation that has fired the imagination for centuries.
Each of the opening of the first four seals is accompanied by one of the four living creatures saying, "Come!". These four living creatures are the same that are seen in Jehovah's "glory cloud".
Although there has been much speculation as to the precise interpretation of each horseman, the fact that there are four of them is, in my opinion, the most significant thing about them.
The book of Zechariah bears many similarities to the book of Revelation, but it was written at the time of the restoration of the Jews from Babylon and the founding of the second Temple.
We shall note many similarities between Zechariah and Revelation in the coming chapters, but one of the first things Zechariah sees is four horses:
"During the night I had a vision—and there before me was a man riding a red horse! He was standing among the myrtle trees in a ravine. Behind him were red, brown and white horses. I asked, “What are these, my lord?” The angel who was talking with me answered, “I will show you what they are.” Then the man standing among the myrtle trees explained, “They are the ones the Lord has sent to go throughout the earth.” And they reported to the angel of the Lord, who was standing among the myrtle trees, “We have gone throughout the earth and found the whole world at rest and in peace.” (Zechariah 1:9-12)
So Jehovah sends these horseman to investigate the state of the earth - and the horsemen report that the whole world is at peace!
An angel asks Jehovah when he would show mercy to Jerusalem, and Jehovah promises that He will do so, but "I am very angry with the nations that feel secure. I was only a little angry, but they added to the calamity." (Zec 1:15)
So Jehovah promises to raise up four craftsmen against the four horns that had dispered Israel, and promises: "I will return to Jerusalem with mercy, and there my house will be rebuilt. And the measuring line will be stretched out over Jerusalem." (Zec 1:16)
Why is this relevant? Because in Revelation chapters 6 to 11 we see almost the reverse of the situation in Zechariah!
In Revelation 6, four horsemen are again sent out, but this time it means calamity.
So just who is this first horseman? We should remember that Revelation is the Lamb's story. It is he who opens the seals, it is he who is found worthy. The larger scroll is even called the "Revelation of Jesus Christ"!
In each of the 7 messages to the 7 churches, Jesus Christ commends his followers to "conquer", or "overcome" [nikaō]. Now the rider on the white horse goes out to "conquer" [nikaō].
However, since he is not formally identified as Christ, this has led many to assume that the rider must be a false Christ, or antichrist. However, we must ask ourselves: why would Christ open his own revelation with the antichrist?
Furthermore, they argue this because this rider is wearing a stephanos crown, and not a diadem type crown as seen by Jesus Christ in Revelation 19.
Nevertheless, the stephanos crown, as given to the rider of the white horse, is a crown of victory, as worn by the victor in public games. This rider has won!
The rider has a bow. Bows are, of course, long range weapons - and those who believe it is antichrist argue that Christ would never use such a primitive weapon, and besides, it is in contrast with the sword in Revelation 19.
And yet, in reference to the Son, a passage from which the author of Hebrews quoted, the Psalmist says:
"Gird your sword upon your side, O mighty one;
clothe yourself with splendor and majesty.
In your majesty ride forth victoriously
in behalf of truth, humility and righteousness;
let your right hand display awesome deeds.
Let your sharp arrows pierce the hearts of the king's enemies;
let the nations fall beneath your feet.
Your throne, O God, will last for ever and ever;
a scepter of justice will be the scepter of your kingdom.
You love righteousness and hate wickedness;
therefore God, your God, has set you above your companions
by anointing you with the oil of joy. (Psalm 45:3-7)
So here we have a passage that, according to the author of Hebrews, is referencing the Son, as using both a sword - and arrows - riding forth to victory!
However, what will really help the case is if we can establish the context of these four horseman.
As we look at the events to follow, hopefully it will become clearer why the most likely candidate for the first horseman is Jesus Christ himself!
~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~
6:3 When the Lamb opened the second seal, I heard the second living creature say, “Come!” 4 Then another horse came out, a fiery red one. Its rider was given power to take peace from the earth and to make men slay each other. To him was given a large sword. 5 When the Lamb opened the third seal, I heard the third living creature say, “Come!” I looked, and there before me was a black horse! Its rider was holding a pair of scales in his hand. 6 Then I heard what sounded like a voice among the four living creatures, saying, “A quart of wheat for a day's wages, and three quarts of barley for a day's wages, and do not damage the oil and the wine!” 7 When the Lamb opened the fourth seal, I heard the voice of the fourth living creature say, “Come!” 8 I looked, and there before me was a pale horse! Its rider was named Death, and Hades was following close behind him. They were given power over a fourth of the earth to kill by sword, famine and plague, and by the wild beasts of the earth.
These are, to be sure, pretty grotesque riders. However, note that their symbology is explained to us in the narrative itself - it does not call for any complex theology.
The red horse takes "peace from the earth and to make men slay each other". He is given a large sword for the purpose.
The absence of peace is war - The red horse means WAR.
The third horse holds scales, a device used to measure things out. A quart of wheat is sold for a days wages, although the oil and wine is not to be touched. The black horse means FAMINE and FOOD SHORTAGES.
The pale horse is DEATH - death by sword, famine and plague, and by wild beasts.
This is in stark contrast to the four horsemen of Zechariah 1, at the time of the Temple's reconstruction, when "the whole world [was] at rest and in peace." (Zec 1:12)
We should also note that Ezekiel also saw his vision of heaven and the four living creatures, immediately before being commissioned to prophecy the destruction of Jerusalem.
Immediately after seeing the heavenly vision, Ezekiel was told by God:
"Son of man, I am sending you to the Israelites, to a rebellious nation that has rebelled against me; they and their fathers have been in revolt against me to this very day." (Ezekiel 2:3)
Ezekiel is also given a scroll with dirges, to eat: "'But you, son of man, listen to what I say to you. Do not rebel like that rebellious house; open your mouth and eat what I give you.' Then I looked, and I saw a hand stretched out to me. In it was a scroll, which he unrolled before me. On both sides of it were written words of lament and mourning and woe. And he said to me, “Son of man, eat what is before you, eat this scroll; then go and speak to the house of Israel." (Ezekiel 2:3-3:1)
There are many similarities between the judgement that was to befall ancient Israel in Ezekiel's day, and the results of the four horsemen of Revelation.
To the Israelites, Jehovah said: "Son of man, I will cut off the supply of food in Jerusalem. The people will eat rationed food in anxiety and drink rationed water in despair, for food and water will be scarce. They will be appalled at the sight of each other and will waste away because of their sin." (Eze 4:16,17)
For the survivors, Jehovah warned: "Therefore as surely as I live, declares the Sovereign LORD, because you have defiled my sanctuary with all your vile images and detestable practices, I myself will withdraw my favor; I will not look on you with pity or spare you. A third of your people will die of the plague or perish by famine inside you; a third will fall by the sword outside your walls; and a third I will scatter to the winds and pursue with drawn sword." (5:11,12)
In addition, Jehovah threatened: "I will send famine and wild beasts against you, and they will leave you childless. Plague and bloodshed will sweep through you, and I will bring the sword against you. I the LORD have spoken." (vs 17)
So then, we see that sword, famine, plague and wild beasts were Jehovah's means of punishing ancient Israel.
These four horsemen, then, bear all the hallmarks of a divine judgement upon the land. Furthermore, it is the Lamb himself who is opening the seals, and the four living creatures who are calling forth the horses.
The question then, is: which land is suffering divine penalties? The whole earth? The nation of Israel?
We should bear in mind that the word "earth" can also be translated as "land".
While I feel this doesn't conclusively prove anything, we can rest assured that Jesus Christ will help us to put things into perspective as we examine the rest of the book of Revelation.
~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~
6:9 When he opened the fifth seal, I saw under the altar the souls of those who had been slain because of the word of God and the testimony they had maintained. 10 They called out in a loud voice, “How long, Sovereign Lord, holy and true, until you judge the inhabitants of the earth and avenge our blood?” 11 Then each of them was given a white robe, and they were told to wait a little longer, until the number of their fellow servants and brothers who were to be killed as they had been was completed.
Upon the opening of the fifth seal, we get a glimpse under the "altar". There were two altars in the Temple - the altar in the courtyard, and the altar in the Holy. Either way, that their blood was "under the altar" shows that they are viewed as holy - and they gave their lives as a sacrifice.
(If we recall, in Isaiah's vision of heaven, a seraph had taken a live coal "from the altar" to atone for Isaiah's sin. -Isaiah 6:6)
They had been slain "because of the word of God and the testimony they had maintained". This "testimony" was undoubtedly the testimony of Jesus Christ!
Jesus himself said to the scribes and Pharisees of his day: "You snakes! You brood of vipers! How will you escape being condemned to hell? Therefore I am sending you prophets and wise men and teachers. Some of them you will kill and crucify; others you will flog in your synagogues and pursue from town to town. And so upon you will come all the righteous blood that has been shed on earth, from the blood of righteous Abel to the blood of Zechariah son of Berekiah, whom you murdered between the temple and the altar. I tell you the truth, all this will come upon this generation." (Mathew 23:33-36)
There is a certain sense of irony in that Zechariah, the one who prophecied during the restoration of the Temple, was murdered "between the temple and the altar"! The altar is nearly full of righteous blood.
These souls call out in a loud voice. Does this mean, then, that they are alive? In Revelation 14:13, a voice out of heaven says:
"Write: Blessed are the dead who die in the Lord from now on.” “Yes,” says the Spirit, “they will rest from their labor, for their deeds will follow them."
In this example, these dead are said to be resting - something that normally only living people can do. Near the end of his life, Daniel was told, "As for you, go your way till the end. You will rest, and then at the end of the days you will rise to receive your allotted inheritance." (Daniel 12:13)
When Cain killed Abel, God said: "What have you done? Listen! Your brother's blood cries out to me from the ground." (Gen 4:10)
In each of these instances, the people and persons are dead - but they can metaphorically rest, and speak.
In the case of the righteous souls under the altar, they are told to wait or "rest". Just like Abel, their blood speaks out, asking God, How long?"
Yes, how long until "you judge the inhabitants of the earth and avenge our blood?"
This is a key point. We should bear in mind who put those early Christians to death - it was primarily the Jews, and the Romans!
God does not tell them, "Ah, it will be a loooong time yet. What's the rush, anyway?"
No, indeed. Quite the opposite, in fact. They are told to "wait a little longer, until the number of their fellow servants and brothers who were to be killed as they had been was completed."
Their blood was to be avenged soon... as we shall see.
6:12 I watched as he opened the sixth seal. There was a great earthquake. The sun turned black like sackcloth made of goat hair, the whole moon turned blood red, 13 and the stars in the sky fell to earth, as late figs drop from a fig tree when shaken by a strong wind. 14 The sky receded like a scroll, rolling up, and every mountain and island was removed from its place.
This would certainly be a terrifying event, were it to take place as written.
However, since the previous five seals have involved symbolic elements - such as four horsemen riding, and dead people speaking from under an altar - we have to ask: to what extent is this symbolic?
Jehovah has used this type of language before. For example, in the book of Amos, God foretells the punishment he was to bring upon his ancient people Israel, warning of their imminent exile "beyond Damascus". (Amos 5:27)
Jehovah says: "“In that day,” declares the Sovereign Lord, “I will make the sun go down at noon and darken the earth in broad daylight. I will turn your religious feasts into mourning and all your singing into weeping. I will make all of you wear sackcloth and shave your heads. I will make that time like mourning for an only son and the end of it like a bitter day." (Amos 8:9,10)
There is no record of the literal sun darkening at the exile of the Jews, but from a spiritual point of view, their world was darkened as they were carried off to a foreign land.
Foretelling the fall of ancient Babylon by the Medes, Isaiah uses even more "apocalyptic" language, in Isaiah 13:
1 An oracle concerning Babylon that Isaiah son of Amoz saw...
4 Listen, a noise on the mountains,
like that of a great multitude!
Listen, an uproar among the kingdoms,
like nations massing together!
The Lord Almighty is mustering
an army for war...
6 Wail, for the day of the Lord is near;
it will come like destruction from the Almighty...
9 See, the day of the Lord is coming
—a cruel day, with wrath and fierce anger—
to make the land desolate
and destroy the sinners within it...
10 The stars of heaven and their constellations
will not show their light.
The rising sun will be darkened
and the moon will not give its light...
13 Therefore I will make the heavens tremble;
and the earth will shake from its place
at the wrath of the Lord Almighty,
in the day of his burning anger...
17 See, I will stir up against them the Medes,
who do not care for silver
and have no delight in gold.
19 Babylon, the jewel of kingdoms,
the glory of the Babylonians' pride,
will be overthrown by God
like Sodom and Gomorrah.
So we see that sun darkening, moon not giving its light, and stars not shining were idioms familiar to the ancient Jews - and in this instance, they symbolically portended the fall of the empire of Babylon. Once again, there is no record of things such as sun and moon darkening happening literally, but the Babylonian empire did indeed fall.
Just before denouncing ancient Jerusalem, Isaiah makes a statement very similar to the one described by this "sixth seal" of Revelation. It is worth reading in its entirety:
10 Go into the rocks,
hide in the ground
from dread of the Lord
and the splendor of his majesty!
11
The eyes of the arrogant man will be humbled
and the pride of men brought low;
the Lord alone will be exalted in that day.
12
The Lord Almighty has a day in store
for all the proud and lofty,
for all that is exalted
(and they will be humbled),
13
for all the cedars of Lebanon, tall and lofty,
and all the oaks of Bashan,
14
for all the towering mountains
and all the high hills,
15
for every lofty tower
and every fortified wall,
16
for every trading ship
and every stately vessel.
17
The arrogance of man will be brought low
and the pride of men humbled;
the Lord alone will be exalted in that day,
18
and the idols will totally disappear.
19
Men will flee to caves in the rocks
and to holes in the ground
from dread of the Lord
and the splendor of his majesty,
when he rises to shake the earth.
20
In that day men will throw away
to the rodents and bats
their idols of silver and idols of gold,
which they made to worship.
21
They will flee to caverns in the rocks
and to the overhanging crags
from dread of the Lord
and the splendor of his majesty,
when he rises to shake the earth.
22
Stop trusting in man,
who has but a breath in his nostrils.
Of what account is he?
This statement is likely made to remind his ancient people that He is God! Isaiah follows this up by saying, "See now, the Lord, the Lord Almighty, is about to take from Jerusalem and Judah both supply and support: all supplies of food and all supplies of water." (Isaiah 3:1)
Jehovah ultimately "shook up" his ancient people by sending them to exile in Babylon. He shook the world once again when He caused the fall of ancient Babylon.
So we deduce from these passages that, collectively, they are symbols of the shaking and fall of a city or nation.
We should note from these passages that the phrase "the day of the Lord" does not exclusively refer to the day of Armageddon, or Judgement Day, as some Christian groups assert. As we can see from Isaiah 13, the fall of Babylon was a "day of the Lord".
In Ezekiel 30, there is a "day of the Lord" for Egypt also:
The word of the LORD came to me:
“Son of man, prophesy and say:
‘This is what the Sovereign LORD says:
“ ‘Wail and say,
“Alas for that day!”
For the day is near,
the day of the LORD is near—
a day of clouds,
a time of doom for the nations.
A sword will come against Egypt,
and anguish will come upon Cush.
When the slain fall in Egypt,
her wealth will be carried away
and her foundations torn down.
Cush and Put, Lydia and all Arabia, Libya
and the people of the covenant land
will fall by the sword along with Egypt. (Eze 30:1-5)
This is not a prophecy of some future time, because Jehovah makes clear that it would be fulfilled "by the hand of Nebuchadnezzar king of Babylon." (vs 10)
So whenever Jehovah acts in bringing down a people or nation, it is a "day of the Lord".
Now, at the "sixth seal" of Revelation, the Lord is acting again - just as he caused the sun and moon to darken against ancient Babylon. The only question is: against whom is He acting?
That will hopefully become clearer as Revelation progresses.
09-23-2007 09:42 PM
Interpretum
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Post: #44RE: Revelation, chapter by chapter
6:15 Then the kings of the earth, the princes, the generals, the rich, the mighty, and every slave and every free man hid in caves and among the rocks of the mountains. 16 They called to the mountains and the rocks, “Fall on us and hide us from the face of him who sits on the throne and from the wrath of the Lamb! 17 For the great day of their wrath has come, and who can stand?”
Once again, this appears to be a very terrifying scenario. However, it once again employs language that would have been familiar to the Jews.
For instance, in speaking of the impending destruction of Jerusalem, when Jesus was being led away by the Romans to be executed, he said:
“Daughters of Jerusalem, do not weep for me; weep for yourselves and for your children. For the time will come when you will say, ‘Blessed are the barren women, the wombs that never bore and the breasts that never nursed!’ Then “ ‘they will say to the mountains, “Fall on us!” and to the hills, “Cover us!” ’ For if men do these things when the tree is green, what will happen when it is dry?” (Luke 23:28-31)
The footnote in the New International Version has Jesus quoting from Hosea 10:8:
The high places of wickedness will be destroyed—
it is the sin of Israel.
Thorns and thistles will grow up
and cover their altars.
Then they will say to the mountains, “Cover us!”
and to the hills, “Fall on us!”
Whether or not Jesus is quoting from this passage, it was clearly a well-known Jewish idiom representing the terror that would come from an impending doom.
At this point, given that this is Jesus Christ's revelation, we should point out the other close connection of the seals that are here being opened - the prophecy given by Jesus on the Mount of Olives.
The disciples asked Jesus about the fate of the Jewish Temple:
"Jesus left the temple and was walking away when his disciples came up to him to call his attention to its buildings. “Do you see all these things?” he asked. “I tell you the truth, not one stone here will be left on another; every one will be thrown down.” As Jesus was sitting on the Mount of Olives, the disciples came to him privately. “Tell us,” they said, “when will this happen, and what will be the sign of your coming and of the end of the age?”" (Mathew 24:1-3)
Clearly then, the disciples were keen to know what was to become of the Temple, and when. Intriguingly, in not one of the other books of the New Testament is the actual destruction of the Temple recorded. (This is in contrast to ancient falls, where both the prophecies and the actual events were recorded in Scripture - such as the fall of Jerusalem by the Babylonians, and the fall of Babylon as recorded by Daniel.)
Perhaps that is because we have missed the obvious - that Revelation may (at least in part) be that record!
Certainly, Jesus describes a time of "great tribulation" for both Jews and Christians, in which he urges "those who are in Judea flee to the mountains." (Mathew 24:16)
Then, Jesus uses the exact same Jewish idiom that is found right here at the "sixth seal":
"“Immediately after the distress of those days
“ ‘the sun will be darkened,
and the moon will not give its light;
the stars will fall from the sky,
and the heavenly bodies will be shaken.’" (24:29)
When we recognize that this is similar Jewish symbology used to express the fall of Jerusalem in ancient times, and almost the same used to describe the fall of Babylon, then we can recognize that the "great tribulation" upon the Jewish city was to be followed by... it's fall... as symbolized by sun and moon darkening, and stars falling!
Of course, this is hard for some to accept, because Jesus then says, "At that time the sign of the Son of Man will appear in the sky, and all the nations of the earth will mourn. They will see the Son of Man coming on the clouds of the sky, with power and great glory."
This event, for many Christians, is to be reserved exclusively for a future "Second Coming" of Christ.
However, if we recognize the language used by God himself in His own Word, God "comes" against nations and peoples whenever He wishes to bring about their downfall.
As I quoted earlier, in his prophecy against Egypt, Ezekiel says: "“ ‘Wail and say, “Alas for that day!” For the day is near, the day of the LORD is near— a day of clouds, a time of doom for the nations." (Eze 30:2,3)
In Isaiah 66, Jehovah says against Israel, "See, the Lord is coming with fire, and his chariots are like a whirlwind; he will bring down his anger with fury, and his rebuke with flames of fire." (Isa 66:15)
So this idea of "coming in clouds" is not new, but meant judgement against that city or people.
Jesus himself, as we saw earlier, threatened to "come" against the churches of Pergamum and Sardis, unless they repented. So Christ, once in heaven, was authorized to "come" to bring judgement against individuals and groups.
However, when Jesus told the Jewish leaders that "...In the future you will see the Son of Man sitting at the right hand of the Mighty One and coming on the clouds of heaven" - this was sufficient for them to charge him with blasphemy.
Jesus was claiming to be the Son of Man in Daniel's prophecy (chapter 7), who would sit at God's right hand and come on the clouds of heaven!
Given that Jesus promised that those Jewish leaders would see it, we have to ask: where in Scripture is this event recorded as actually occurring?
Is it not right here, at the "sixth seal"?
In what way do the "kings of the earth" hide away? In Psalm 2, Jehovah speaks to them in derision:
Why do the nations conspire
and the peoples plot in vain?
The kings of the earth take their stand
and the rulers gather together
against the Lord
and against his Anointed One.
“Let us break their chains,” they say,
“and throw off their fetters.” (Ps 2:1-3)
After being threatened by the Sanhedrin not to speak about Jesus any more, the disciples quote this passage in their prayer to God:
"When they heard this, they raised their voices together in prayer to God. “Sovereign Lord,” they said, “you made the heaven and the earth and the sea, and everything in them. You spoke by the Holy Spirit through the mouth of your servant, our father David:
“ ‘Why do the nations rage
and the peoples plot in vain?
The kings of the earth take their stand
and the rulers gather together
against the Lord
and against his Anointed One.
Indeed Herod and Pontius Pilate met together with the Gentiles and the people of Israel in this city to conspire against your holy servant Jesus, whom you anointed. They did what your power and will had decided beforehand should happen." (Acts 4:24-2
So the prophecy of Psalm 2 was fulfilled in the 1st century - yet Jehovah also said:
The One enthroned in heaven laughs;
the Lord scoffs at them.
Then he rebukes them in his anger
and terrifies them in his wrath, saying,
“I have installed my King[fn3]
on Zion, my holy hill.”
I will proclaim the decree of the Lord:
He said to me, “You are my Son;
today I have become your Father." (Ps 2:4-7)
These "kings of the earth" have their way momentarily - but then Jehovah "rebukes them in his anger and terrifies them in his wrath".
Here, at the "sixth seal", we see that very thing!
THE STORY SO FAR...
So then, let us sum up "the story so far".
Jesus, in talking about the "end" of the Temple, warns his followers that there would be wars, food shortages, famines and earthquakes beforehand. He alerts them that many of them would be put to death. Then, there would be a time of "great tribulation" in which the people of Judea are warned to flee, and then after the tribulation, the sun and moon are darkened, in language familiar to the Jews as representing the fall of a nation.
In Revelation chapter 6, we have almost exactly the same sequence, told in the symbolic language of a white horseman, then a red horse of war, a black horse of food shortage, and a pale horse of death by sword, famine, plague and by wild beasts. Then the "fifth seal" reveals the souls of those who have been slain because of the word of God and their testimony. They ask how long before their blood is avenged, and they are told to wait "a little longer" until their brothers were killed also.
Then, the "sixth seal" is opened and the sun and moon darken. Just as Jesus told the daughters of Jerusalem to weep for themselves, because "then “ ‘they will say to the mountains, “Fall on us!” and to the hills, “Cover us!”" - that is exactly what everyone is doing here!
The implication here is that the nation which is about to face God's wrath is Israel! - although God is also angry with the nations.
Of course, there are plenty of Christians who would disagree that this has anything to do with Israel - after all, to say this part happened some 1,900 years ago would sell a lot fewer books!
But let's assume momentarily that it does - then surely the chapters to follow would need to make reference to the "great tribulation" upon the Jews, and to Jews and Christians who escaped. It would surely need to make mention of the Roman armies coming upon Jerusalem. And it would need to mention the Temple and its destruction.
7:1 After this I saw four angels standing at the four corners of the earth, holding back the four winds of the earth to prevent any wind from blowing on the land or on the sea or on any tree. 2 Then I saw another angel coming up from the east, having the seal of the living God. He called out in a loud voice to the four angels who had been given power to harm the land and the sea:
3 "Do not harm the land or the sea or the trees until we put a seal on the foreheads of the servants of our God."
4 Then I heard the number of those who were sealed: 144,000 from all the tribes of Israel.
5 From the tribe of Judah 12,000 were sealed.
from the tribe of Reuben 12,000,
from the tribe of Gad 12,000,
6 from the tribe of Asher 12,000,
from the tribe of Naphtali 12,000,
from the tribe of Manasseh 12,000,
7 from the tribe of Simeon 12,000,
from the tribe of Levi 12,000,
from the tribe of Issachar 12,000,
8 from the tribe of Zebulun 12,000,
from the tribe of Joseph 12,000,
from the tribe of Benjamin 12,000.
In Daniel's vision of four wild beasts, we see a similar symbology:
"In my vision at night I looked, and there before me were the four winds of heaven churning up the great sea. Four great beasts, each different from the others, came up out of the sea." (Daniel 7:2,3)
However, in Daniel's vision, it is the "four winds of heaven" that stir up the sea. In John's vision, the "four winds of the earth" are being held back from doing any harm, until the servants of God are sealed.
This might sound strange, given that we have previously been told about horsemen such as war, famine and death, an altar of righteous blood that had been shed, and everyone going into hiding from the face of God and the Lamb!
However, if the "sixth seal" symbolizes the imminent fall of Jerusalem, then this "holding back" makes a great deal of sense.
Jesus warned his disciples:
"So when you see standing in the holy place 'the abomination that causes desolation,' spoken of through the prophet Daniel - let the reader understand - then let those who are in Judea flee to the mountains." (Mathew 24:15,16)
In Luke's version, Jesus is even more specific:
"When you see Jerusalem being surrounded by armies, you will know that its desolation is near. Then let those who are in Judea flee to the mountains, let those in the city get out, and let those in the country not enter the city. For this is the time of punishment in fulfillment of all that has been written." (Luke 21:20-22)
The Roman armies came upon Jerusalem in 66AD. How, then, was the Christian supposed to flee? They could recognize the sign, but had no way of escaping!
Shortly after, for reasons that are not clear, the Roman armies withdrew. This was the opportunity for the Jewish Christians to flee, to come out of the "great tribulation" that was to break out upon that very city - a tribulation that would, according to the Jewish historian Josephus, see mothers eating their own babies, mobs of insane murderering men dressed in women's clothing roaming the streets and killing at random, attempted escapees from Jerusalem being ripped open by the Romans in the search for gold, and the eventual suicide of the last Jewish hangouts at the fort of Masada - an event which shocked even the Roman soldiers.
Thus, if the "sixth seal" is a portent of the imminent fall of Jerusalem as an expression of Jehovah's wrath, then this pause between the "sixth" and the "seventh" seals, as expressed in Revelation chapter 7, represents the opportunity to escape what is to come!
Do we see this idea being expressed here in Revelation? Let's see...
The four angels are told: ""Do not harm the land or the sea or the trees until we put a seal on the foreheads of the servants of our God."
They are not to do harm until the "servants of our God" have been "sealed". To "seal" was to give an official stamp or mark. (See Song of Solomon 8:6, Daniel 9:24, John 6:27, 2 Corinthians 1:22.)
John hears their number: "Then I heard the number of those who were sealed: 144,000 from all the tribes of Israel."
This is, of course, a much disputed passage of Revelation. Is this literal, symbolic? Are the "tribes of Israel" literal or symbolic?
JWs argue that the number is literal, but the "tribes of Israel" are symbolic of spiritual Israel.
Many Christian groups feel the number 144,000 is symbolic and that the "tribes of Israel" symbolize the Church.
However, the confusion arises, in my opinion, mainly because they are unable to place this passage of Revelation in context.
Although I have not yet fully established the case for the "sixth seal" representing the imminent fall of Jerusalem - there is a lot more to come! - if it is a reference to Jerusalem, then the Roman armies surrounding Jerusalem was the sign for those Jewish Christians that "its desolation is near". To reinforce this, in Revelation, Jesus uses symbology that would be familiar to the Jews - that of sun and moon darkening!
So the very next event that would take place would be the Jewish Christians fleeing Jerusalem!
And here, between the "sixth" and the "seventh" seals, we have a mysterious group of 144,000 "sealed" "from all the tribes of Israel"!
In other words - in my opinion, this 144,000 represent the Jewish escapees of the "great tribulation" that was about to come upon Jerusalem!
We should note how John structures this prophecy - by listing 12,000 from 12 tribes, he is essentially describing a census or roll call! However, 12,000 is a tiny number compared to tens of thousands of Jews that were enrolled in previous times...
... it is therefore a remnant!
Paul quotes from several passages of Isaiah to make his point that a "remnant" would be saved:
"Isaiah cries out concerning Israel:
'Though the number of the Israelites be like the sand by the sea,
only the remnant will be saved.
For the Lord will carry out his sentence on earth
with speed and finality.'
It is just as Isaiah said previously:
'Unless the Lord Almighty
had left us descendants,
we would have become like Sodom,
we would have been like Gomorrah.'" (Romans 9:27-29)
The point of Paul's argument, when you read these passages in context, was that God was not totally abandoning his people the Jews, but had left a remnant - this time Paul's application of the remnant was to be the Jewish Christians!
This is essentially what Paul is saying in Romans 11:1-5:
"1 I ask then: Did God reject his people? By no means! I am an Israelite myself, a descendant of Abraham, from the tribe of Benjamin.
2 God did not reject his people, whom he foreknew. Don't you know what the Scripture says in the passage about Elijah - how he appealed to God against Israel:
3 'Lord, they have killed your prophets and torn down your altars; I am the only one left, and they are trying to kill me'?
4 And what was God's answer to him? 'I have reserved for myself seven thousand who have not bowed the knee to Baal.'
5 So too, at the present time there is a remnant chosen by grace."
So then, where in scripture do we see an actual description of a "remnant" of Israel being "reserved", "chosen", by "grace"?
Right here, in Revelation chapter 7!
Out of the myriads of Israel, only 12,000 from each tribe are "sealed" - a remnant indeed!
I take 144,000 as a symbolic number, because its composites are also symbolic. Even JWs acknowledge that the number 12,000 for each tribe is symbolic. (Yet their sum total, they argue, is literal?) My main argument is context - if it is true that the "sixth seal" is a reference to the imminent fall of Jerusalem, then the interlude here, and the subsequent "seventh seal" must also be connected.
Again, this is the same reason I believe the "tribes of Israel" here are literal - if the context is really concerning Jerusalem, it almost begs for a literal understanding!
Besides, as we shall see next, these limited number from the tribes of Israel, are contrasted with a larger, much bigger group...
~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~
7:9 After this I looked and there before me was a great multitude that no one could count, from every nation, tribe, people and language, standing before the throne and in front of the Lamb. They were wearing white robes and were holding palms branches in their hands. 10 And they cried out in a loud voice:
'Salvation belongs to our God,
who sits on the throne,
and to the Lamb.'
11 All the angels were standing around the throne and around the elders and the four living creatures. They fell down on their faces before the throne and worshiped God, 12 saying,
'Amen!
Praise and glory
and wisdom and thanks and honor
and power and strength
be to our God for ever and ever.
Amen!'"
In contrast to the 144,000, here John sees a "great multitude that no one could count".
Although JWs argue that this contrast adds weight to the argument that the 144,000 number must be literal - because they could be counted, in contrast to the "great multitude" who cannot - I would say, rather, it highlights the smallness of the 144,000 - a remnant, in contrast with a multitude.
These ones are "from every nation, tribe, people and language". Once again, this provides a contrast to the 144,000 who are from "all the tribes of Israel." The Jewish term for people from the nations, tribes, peoples and languages are... Gentiles!
They are "standing before the throne and in front of the Lamb." Does it mean this "great multitude" are therefore in heaven?
In his great Olivet Prophecy, Jesus urged his followers: "Be always on the watch, and pray that you may be able to escape all that is about to happen, and that you may be able to stand before the Son of Man." (Luke 21:36)
Yes, his Jewish audience needed to pay particular attention to the "sign" Jesus promised - namely, the surrounding of Jerusalem with armies - for that was their sign that "its desolation is near", and their signal to flee.
Their being able to "stand before the Son of Man" was nothing to do with being in heaven, but in being found worthy.
Again, their "standing before the throne" provides a beautiful contrast to the rest of the people, who as we saw at the opening of the "sixth seal", are in hiding, asking, "The great day of their wrath has come, and who can stand?" (6:17)
Chapter 7 provides their answer - the 144,000 and the "great multitude" can stand, that's who!
"They were wearing white robes". In his counsel to the church in Sardis, Jesus said: "Yet you have a few people in Sardis who have not soiled their clothes. They will walk with me, dressed in white, for they are worthy. He who overcomes will, like them, be dressed in white." (Rev 3:4,5)
Thus, these of the "great multitude" have been found worthy! That is why they are dressed in white, and are standing before the throne and the Lamb.
They "were holding palms branches in their hands." This alludes to an incident as Jesus was coming into Jerusalem:
"The next day the great crowd that had come for the Feast heard that Jesus was on his way to Jerusalem. They took palm branches and went out to meet him, shouting,
'Hosanna!
Blessed is he who comes in the name of the Lord!
Blessed is the King of Israel!' (John 12:12,13)
There is a sense of irony in these words of the apostle, because shortly after, these Jews are crying out for Jesus' execution!
However, in John's vision of Revelation, a great multitude of Gentiles are doing what the Jewish nation as a whole should have done - they are acknowledging the Lamb's kingship!
09-24-2007 06:08 PM
Interpretum
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Post: #55RE: Revelation, chapter by chapter
7:13 Then one of the elders asked me, 'These in white robes - who are they, and where did they come from?' 14 I answered, 'Sir, you know.' And he said, 'These are they who have come out of the great tribulation; they have washed their robes and made them white in the blood of the Lamb. Therefore,
15 'they are before the throne of God
and serve him day and night in his temple;
and he who sits on the throne will spread his tent over them.
16 Never again will they hunger;
never again will they thirst.
The sun will not beat upon them,
nor any scorching heat.
17 For the Lamb at the center of the throne will be their shepherd;
he will lead them to springs of living water.
And God will wipe away every tear from their eyes.'"
One of the 24 elders asks John, "These in white robes - who are they, and where did they come from?"
It's intriguing that he does not ask John about the 144,000 - is that because they are self-explanatory?
Either way, John replies, "Sir, you know." This question is used to allow the elder to explain who they are!
He says, "These are they who have come out of the great tribulation".
Now, if I previously asserted that the "great tribulation" was upon the Jews, how is it that these non-Jews come out of that "great tribulation"?
The answer is simple - this tribulation was to come upon the face of the entire earth, although its focal point was Jerusalem.
To the church in Smyrna, Jesus said: ""Do not be afraid of what you are about to suffer. I tell you, the devil will put some of you in prison to test you, and you will suffer persecution for ten days." (2:10)
To the Jezebelites of the church in Thyatira, Jesus said: "I have given her time to repent of her immorality, but she is unwilling. So I will cast her on a bed of suffering, and I will make those who commit adultery with her suffer intensely ["great tribulation", NWT], unless they repent of her ways. I will strike her children dead." (2:21,22)
And to the faithful church of Philadelphia, Christ said: "Since you have kept my command to endure patiently, I will also keep you from the hour of trial that is going to come upon the whole world to test those who live on the earth." (3:10)
(These were not ineffective threats or promises about events that were hundreds of years in their future. If these words of Jesus were to mean anything to those churches, they must have application to the time in which they lived! Otherwise it would be like me promising to spare you from a tribulation that would take place in 3945AD )
So the tribulation was certainly not confined to the borders of Jerusalem - but all the earth was to be affected.
However, it was centered around Jerusalem because it was God's city, and it was the birthplace of the Messiah, and of the Christian church.
These ones "they have washed their robes and made them white in the blood of the Lamb." Clearly then, these ones have accepted Christ as their Lamb, and have "washed their robes" by accepting his sacrifice for forgiveness of their sins.
The next passages contain almost the promises to be found near the end of Revelation, when New Jerusalem comes down out of heaven:
"“Now the dwelling ["tent", NWT] of God is with men, and he will live with them. They will be his people, and God himself will be with them and be their God. He will wipe every tear from their eyes. There will be no more death or mourning or crying or pain, for the old order of things has passed away.” (Rev 21:3,4)
In these latter verses, the "old order of things" ended with the abyssing and releasing of Satan, his eventual destruction, and the resurrection of the dead.
Although these things do not take place at the "sixth seal", there is an old order that is passing away - the kingdom of Israel!
That is very likely why these comforting words are spoken right before the opening of the last of the scroll's seals - the old Jewish order was passing away, but God is reassuring his true people that they would never be abandoned - his "tent" was with them.
They would be led to springs of living water by their shepherd, the Lamb. This tender language shows that Jesus, the Lamb, is a tender shepherd. Indeed, to the Jews, he said:
"I am the good shepherd; I know my sheep and my sheep know me – just as the Father knows me and I know the Father – and I lay down my life for the sheep. I have other sheep that are not of this sheep pen. I must bring them also. They too will listen to my voice, and there shall be one flock and one shepherd." (John 10:14-16)
Now, here in Revelation, we see the reality of Jesus' words - a remnant from the tribes of Israel, and a great multitude from the Gentiles, are brought together as "one flock" under "one shepherd", the Lamb - to be shephered to living water.
In the meantime, in the "fifth seal", God promised those righteous souls under the altar to wait a little longer for vengeance for their blood.
The "seventh seal" is about to open, in response to their prayers...
8:1 When he opened the seventh seal, there was silence in heaven for about half an hour. 2 And I saw the seven angels who stand before God, and to them were given seven trumpets. 3 Another angel, who had a golden censer, came and stood at the altar. He was given much incense to offer, with the prayers of all the saints, on the golden altar before the throne. 4 The smoke of the incense, together with the prayers of the saints, went up before God from the angel's hand. 5 Then the angel took the censer, filled it with fire from the altar, and hurled it on the earth; and there came peals of thunder, rumblings, flashes of lightning and an earthquake. 6 Then the seven angels who had the seven trumpets prepared to sound them.
The "seventh seal" is opened!
This last of the "seven seals" is the most important one of all - for a scroll that is sealed with seven seals can only be read once all of the seals have been opened!
Thus, only upon the opening of the last seal, can the scroll be properly read. When it is opened, "there was silence in heaven for about half an hour." While there is no explanation given as to why this silence occurs, I get the impression it is partly for dramatic effect... like the quiet pause you get in a movie, just before devastation is about to be unleashed.
John sees "the seven angels who stand before God", and "to them were given seven trumpets."
There are similarities here between Joshua's conquest of the Promised Land. To conquer the pagan city of Jericho, God told Joshua: "“See, I have delivered Jericho into your hands, along with its king and its fighting men. March around the city once with all the armed men. Do this for six days. Have seven priests carry trumpets of rams' horns in front of the ark. On the seventh day, march around the city seven times, with the priests blowing the trumpets. When you hear them sound a long blast on the trumpets, have all the people give a loud shout; then the wall of the city will collapse and the people will go up, every man straight in.” (Joshua 6:2-5)
This time, however, it is not Joshua, but Jesus. It is not seven marching days, but seven seals. And it is not seven priests, but seven holy angels. The fall of Jericho was the beginning of the conquest of the Promised Land. Now, at the opening of the "seventh seal", a new spiritual Promised Land is opening up, which requires the fall of the old.
Another angel comes and stands at the altar, with a golden censer, or incense vessel. "He was given much incense to offer, with the prayers of all the saints, on the golden altar before the throne."
Now we see that the prayers of the holy ones have not been ineffective. Here they are being used as part of this holy assembly. Like a memorial sacrifice, the smoke from the incense and the prayers of the saints go up before God. Could this be an indication that God is about to answer their prayers for vengeance?
"Then the angel took the censer, filled it with fire from the altar, and hurled it on the earth."
The answer is - Yes! The same fire which produced the smoke that was mixed with the holy ones prayers - this fire is now hurled on the earth!
Earlier on, in the "fifth seal", the holy ones asked: "“How long, Sovereign Lord, holy and true, until you judge the inhabitants of the earth and avenge our blood?"
By the "seventh seal", divine vengeance on behalf of these holy ones is about to commence.
To add to the drama, "there came peals of thunder, rumblings, flashes of lightning and an earthquake."
"Then the seven angels who had the seven trumpets prepared to sound them"...
Folks, just before moving onto Chapter 8 I decided to take another look at Josephus, given that I'm inclined to think the "sixth seal" was portending the imminent fall of Jerusalem.
What I have so far found in Josephus has been quite shocking and exciting. I have found two passages from Josephus that might be very relevant to the segment on Chapter 8 that I just discussed, so I'd like to share them with you before we move on to the "seven trumpets".
The second one was completely new to me, and I think is an amazing connection.
Here's the first:
Josephus was governor of Galilee during the time of the Jewish rebellion, so he was directly involved in the war between the Jews and the Romans. We should also point out that Josephus was not a Christian, although he was a believer in God.
I opened up Josephus at random, and fortuitously came to the part where the Jews were being led along by false prophets, where Josephus pointed out that they missed the true signs God had given them to foreshadow their destruction. One of the many signs was as follows:
"Thus also, before the Jews' rebellion, and before those commotions which preceded the war, when the people were come in great crowds to the feast of unleavened bread, on the eighth day of the month Xanthicus [Nisan], and at the ninth hour of the night, so great a light shone round the altar and the holy house, that it appeared to be bright daytime; which light lasted for half an hour. This light seemed to be a good sign to the unskillful, but was so interpreted by the sacred scribes, as to portend those events that followed immediately upon it." (Josephus, Wars Of The Jews, Book 6, Chapter 5, pt 3)
Recall that, "When he [the Lamb] opened the seventh seal, there was silence in heaven for about half an hour." (Revelation 8:1)
Of course, this may be coincidence - but the second match is, in my opinion, even more impressive...
[man hu]I am not convinced the rider on the white horse is Jesus, for other reasons. Firstly one of the living creatures calls out the rider on the white horse. Why should Jesus be answering to the command of a lesser spirit?
The Greek says that the rider comes out conquering bent on conquest, or "in order that he might conquer" conditional tense.
The Bible then says authority was given them to kill.... and interestingly there are four and it was a fourth part of the earth. Why would Jesus have a bow and be killing at this time? The earth had not yet been judged......but I am open to persuaion.
The red of the rider on the red horse is purros/pyrros as in pyromaniac. hence fiery red. So it does not symbolise war as in blood red but as already stated a removal of any peace, a real fire brand!, but this would naturally lead to war and many unreasonable disputes.
And I am pretty certain the seven trumpets were first symbolised by Jericho. Not too sure how it fits in with the timetable of Revelation, but I think the sever judgment on Achan reflects how important burning everything from Jericho was, because it was symbolic of something greater.
Here is the second, and much more amazing (in my opinion) connection between Josephus and Revelation. It's a bit of a longer read than the first, but well worth it - it's a very fascinating piece of history - which may be directly linked to Revelation!
In reading Josephus, I decided to read from the time when Cestius Gallus besieged Jerusalem (in 66AD), and then unexpectedly withdrew, despite being able to to take the city quite easily.
This was the opportunity for Christians to flee. But the window of opportunity didn't last very long, for shortly after, Jewish generals were being appointed within Jerusalem, and preparations to fight against the Romans were being made.
In Josephus' province of Galilee, a man called John of Gischala made plots to overthrow Josephus. John fails, and flees to his home city. The Roman emperor Nero appoints Vespasian to punish the Jews, and Vespasian is accompanied by his own son Titus.
Vespasian eventually takes most of Galilee off Josephus, but spares Josephus' life because of his prominence. (And it's at this time that Josephus shares with Vespasian a dream he had from God, in which both Vespasian and his son Titus would become emperors - a prediction which eventually came true, both did eventually become emperors.)
Meantime, John's home town of Gischala is taken, and so he flees to Jerusalem. At first, people are curious about his coming, but soon John is a very corrupting influence in Jerusalem, and draws the worst part of the Jewish citizenry to him. They become known as what Josephus calls the "zealots" - made up of robbers and murderers.
Before long, they became what Josephus calls "a band of wickedness", and this seemed to be reflected elsewhere, for "there were besides disorders and civil wars in every city; and all those that were at quiet from the Romans turned their hands one against another." (Wars Of The Jews, Book 4, Chapter 3, section 1)
These zealots appointed false high priests and committed many atrocities against the Temple. However, the true high priest at the time, Ananus, roused the people to attempt to oust these zealots, who therefore went and hid in the Temple.
Knowing their sore plight, the zealots write to the Idumeans for assistance, and the Idumeans rush to Jerusalem in order to help them. But Ananus ordered the gates to be shut, and the walls guarded, to prevent their entrance!
This enraged the Idumeans, who were considered Jewish brothers, and so they decided to spend the night outside the city.
This is now where I will let Josephus take up the story of the Idumeans:
"But the shame that would attend them [the Idumeans] in case they returned without doing anything at all so far overcame that their repentance, that they lay all night before the wall, though in a very bad encampment; for there broke out a prodigious storm in the night, with the utmost violence, and very strong winds, with the largest showers of rain, with continual lightenings, terrible thunderings, and amazing concussions and bellowings of the earth, that was in an earthquake. These things were a manifest indication that some destruction was coming upon men, when the system of the world was put into this disorder; and anyone would guess that these wonders foreshadowed some grand calamities that were coming." (Wars Of The Jews, Book 4, Chapter 4, part 5)
Everyone interpreted this as a sign from God in their own way, but since the people did not come out of their houses during this violent storm, the zealots used this as an opportunity to slip out of the Temple, and under cover of the sound of the thunder, they used saws to cut the bars of the city gates to pieces, and let the Idumeans in!
The city guards were attacked and killed, while they had been sleeping. According to Josephus:
"The outer temple was all of it overflowing with blood; and that day, as it came on, saw eight thousand five hundred dead bodies there. But the rage of the Idumeans was not satiated by these slaughters; for they now betook themselves to the city, and plundered every house, and slew everyone they met; and for the other multitude, they esteemed it needless to go on with killing them, but they sought for the high priests, and the generality went with the greatest zeal against them; and as soon as they caught them they slew them... nay, they proceeded to that degree of impiety, so as to cast away their dead bodies without burial." (Wars, Book 4, Chapter 5, pt 2)
Josephus now makes another observance which I think is highly significant to our discussion of Revelation:
"I should not mistake if I said that the death of Ananus was the beginning of the destruction of the city, and that from this very day may be dated the overthrow of her wall, and the ruin of her affairs, whereon they saw their high priest, and the procurer of their preservation, slain in the midst of their city."
So although there were many incidents leading up to this event, and many terrible events to come, Josephus himself considered this day to be the "beginning of the destruction of the city".
And this same day saw, according to Josephus, "lightenings, terrible thunderings, and amazing concussions and bellowings of the earth, that was in an earthquake"... as "a manifest indication that some destruction was coming upon men".
And right here, in Revelation chapter 8, at the opening of the "seventh seal", we see something remarkably similar!..
"Then the angel took the censer, filled it with fire from the altar, and hurled it on the earth; and there came peals of thunder, rumblings, flashes of lightning and an earthquake." (8:5)
So, as I've previously alluded... the "sixth seal" symbolized the imminent fall of Jerusalem. The emergence of the 144,000 and great crowd symbolized the escape of the Jewish Christians, and the faith of the Gentile Christians who recognized the Lamb as their King and Saviour, and the opening of the "seventh seal" represents the start of the fall of Jerusalem.
What was presented "in signs" to John, the historian Josephus reports to us in actual happenings!
8:7 The first angel sounded his trumpet, and there came hail and fire mixed with blood, and it was hurled down upon the earth. A third of the earth was burned up, a third of the trees were burned up, and all the green grass was burned up.
The scroll given to the Lamb has now been fully opened up, it's seven seals having been opened.
The first angel blows his trumpet, and "there came hail and fire mixed with blood, and it was hurled down upon the earth".
This is likely an allusion to the prophecy in Joel:
“And afterward,
I will pour out my Spirit on all people.
Your sons and daughters will prophesy,
your old men will dream dreams,
your young men will see visions.
Even on my servants, both men and women,
I will pour out my Spirit in those days.
I will show wonders in the heavens
and on the earth,
blood and fire and billows of smoke.
The sun will be turned to darkness
and the moon to blood
before the coming of the great and dreadful day of the Lord.
And everyone who calls
on the name of the Lord will be saved;
for on Mount Zion and in Jerusalem
there will be deliverance,
as the Lord has said,
among the survivors
whom the Lord calls." (Joel 2:28-32)
We should note that the apostle Peter quoted from this prophecy, in reference to the disciples speaking in tongues on the day of Pentecost 33CE. (Acts 2:16-21)
Clearly then, on this day of Pentecost, the Spirit was being poured out in fulfillment of Joel. There was yet to come, however, the "coming of the great and dreadful day of the Lord" that would come upon Jerusalem.
At the "sixth seal", we already saw the sun and moon darkening, as a portent of an imminent downfall... and now, there was to be "hail and fire mixed with blood".
Each of these first four trumpets generally affects a third of something. Clearly, then, this is not a complete end, but is still more intense than the four horsemen affecting a fourth of the earth.
This first trumpet burns up a third of the trees and earth, and all the green grass.
Josephus describes the effects of the Jewish war upon the land:
"And now the Romans, although they were greatly distressed in getting together their materials, raised their banks in on-and-twenty days, after they had cut down all the trees that were in the country that adjoined to the city, and that for ninety furlongs round about, as I have already related. And truly the very view itself of the country was a melancholy thing; for those places which were before adorned with trees and pleasant gardens were now become a desolate country every way, and its trees were all cut down : nor could any foreigner that had formerly seen Judea, and the most beautiful suburbs of the city, and now see it as a desert, but lament and mourn sadly at so great a change: for the was had laid all signs of beauty quite waste: nor, if any one that had known the place before had come on a sudden to it now, would have known it again; but though he were at the city itself, yet would he have inquired for it notwithstanding." (Wars of the Jews, Book 6, Chapter 1)
Indeed, even before the Romans commenced war upon Jerusalem itself, the bloody battles that raged between the Romans and the Jews provided the opportunity for the Romans to use their "scorched earth" tactics across the land - with many Jewish cities besieged and captured - with lots of blood being shed.
The most notable example of this is the city to which Josephus himself fled - Jotapata. Under Josephus' leadership, the city held out against Roman "fire" and "hail" for over 40 days.
Then there was the example, which I quoted in my last post, of the capture of the Temple by the zealots, and the night of the great and fearful storm and earthquake-like trembling, in which the Idumeans were let into Jerusalem, and both the Temple and the streets of Jerusalem ran with blood.
Certainly then, at this stage of the war, before the Romans had even got to Jerusalem, it was as if "hail and fire mixed with blood" had been hurled down to the earth.
09-26-2007 02:13 PM
Interpretum
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Post: #63RE: Revelation, chapter by chapter
8:8 The second angel sounded his trumpet, and something like a huge mountain, all ablaze, was thrown into the sea. A third of the sea turned into blood, 9 a third of the living creatures in the sea died, and a third of the ships were destroyed.
We must remember that these trumpets are being blasted partly as a result of the prayers of the holy ones.
At a time when Jesus was entering Jerusalem, Jesus got hungry, and saw a fig tree, but found no fruit. Jesus curses the tree: "“May you never bear fruit again!” Immediately the tree withers.
"When the disciples saw this, they were amazed. “How did the fig tree wither so quickly?” they asked. Jesus replied, “I tell you the truth, if you have faith and do not doubt, not only can you do what was done to the fig tree, but also you can say to this mountain, ‘Go, throw yourself into the sea,’ and it will be done. If you believe, you will receive whatever you ask for in prayer.” (Mathew 21:20-22)
Now, here at the second trumpet, the faith of the holy ones was being demonstrated in a symbolic way - a great mountain was being hurled into the sea!
The main "mountain" that still stood in the way of the Christians was from the Jewish nation, whom Jesus in his messages to the seven churches referred to as a "synagogue of Satan". Indeed, the book of Acts shows the many examples of the scribes, Pharisees, the Jewish sanhedrin and even the Jews themselves, hindering the good news about Jesus Christ.
In the revelation of John, this mountain, however, is "ablaze". As Josephus reports, shortly after Cestius Gallus removed from Jerusalem in 66CE, civil war broke out - Jerusalem was "ablaze", without the Romans even laying a hand upon them!
The imagery of nations being mountains was nothing new to the Jews. To Babylon, the prophet Jeremiah had said:
"“I am against you, O destroying mountain, you who destroy the whole earth,” declares the Lord. “I will stretch out my hand against you, roll you off the cliffs, and make you a burned-out mountain." (Jeremiah 51:25)
As a result of this huge mountain being thrown into the sea, "a third of the sea turned into blood, a third of the living creatures in the sea died, and a third of the ships were destroyed."
Once again, we see similar things as a result of this Jewish revolt against the Romans. Josephus recounts part of the events during the civil war, how even foreigners who had come to sacrifice in Jerusalem were dying, with their blood entering the lakes:
"For notwithstanding these men were mad with all sorts of impiety, yet did they still admit those that desired to offer their sacrifices, although they took care to search the people of their own country beforehand, and both suspected and watched them; while they were not so much afraid of strangers, who, although they had gotten leave of them, how cruel soever they were, to come into that court, were yet often destroyed by this sedition; for those darts that were thrown by the engines came with that force, that they went over all the buildings, and reached as far as the altar, and the temple itself, and fell upon the priests, and those that were about the sacred offices; insomuch that many persons who came thither with great zeal from the ends of the earth, to offer sacrifices at this celebrated place, which was esteemed holy by all mankind, fell down before their own sacrifices themselves, and sprinkled that altar which was venerable among all men, both Greeks and Barbarians, with their own blood; till the dead bodies of strangers were mingled together with those of their own country, and those of profane persons with those of the priests, and the blood of all sorts of dead carcasses stood in lakes in the holy courts themselves. And now, 'O must wretched city, what misery so great as this didst thou suffer from the Romans, when they came to purify thee from thy intestine hatred! 'For thou couldst be no longer a place fit for God, nor couldst thou long continue in being, after thou hadst been a sepulcher for the bodies of thy own people, and hadst made the holy house itself a burying-place in this civil war of thine.'" (Wars of the Jews, Book 5, Chapter 1)
Furthermore, we see the same things happening throughout the land. For instance, in Vespasian's capture of Gennesareth, many people fled by boat. Josephus' description reads:
"But now, when the vessels were gotten ready, Vespasian put upon ship-board as many of his forces as he thought sufficient to be too hard for those that were upon the lake, and set sail after them.
Now these which were driven into the lake could neither fly to the land, where all was in their enemies' hand, and in war against them; nor could they fight upon the level by sea, for their ships were small and fitted only for piracy; they were too weak to fight with Vespasian's vessels, and the mariners that were in them were so few, that they were afraid to come near the Romans, who attacked them in great numbers.
However, as they sailed round about the vessels, and sometimes as they came near them, they threw stones at the Romans when they were a good way off, or came closer and fought them; yet did they receive the greatest harm themselves in both cases. As for the stones they threw at the Romans, they only made a sound one after another, for they threw them against such as were in their armor, while the Roman darts could reach the Jews themselves; and when they ventured to come near the Romans, they became sufferers themselves before they could do any harm to the ether, and were drowned, they and their ships together.
As for those that endeavored to come to an actual fight, the Romans ran many of them through with their long poles. Sometimes the Romans leaped into their ships, with swords in their hands, and slew them; but when some of them met the vessels, the Romans caught them by the middle, and destroyed at once their ships and themselves who were taken in them.
And for such as were drowning in the sea, if they lifted their heads up above the water, they were either killed by darts, or caught by the vessels; but if, in the desperate case they were in, they attempted to swim to their enemies, the Romans cut off either their heads or their hands; and indeed they were destroyed after various manners every where, till the rest being put to flight, were forced to get upon the land, while the vessels encompassed them about [on the sea]: but as many of these were repulsed when they were getting ashore, they were killed by the darts upon the lake; and the Romans leaped out of their vessels, and destroyed a great many more upon the land: one might then see the lake all bloody, and full of dead bodies, for not one of them escaped.
And a terrible stink, and a very sad sight there was on the following days over that country; for as for the shores, they were full of shipwrecks, and of dead bodies all swelled; and as the dead bodies were inflamed by the sun, and putrefied, they corrupted the air, insomuch that the misery was not only the object of commiseration to the Jews, but to those that hated them, and had been the authors of that misery. This was the upshot of the sea-fight. The number of the slain, including those that were killed in the city before." (Wars Of The Jews, Book 3, Chapter 10, section 9)
So Josephus demonstrates the historical reality of that which had been symbolized to John while on the isle of Patmos.
Jesus had taught his followers that their faith could move mountains into the sea. John's "second trumpet" was now moving the biggest obstacle to date - the apostate "mountain" of Israel - into a symbolic "sea". Josephus reports for us on what that actually meant in real terms.
09-26-2007 02:56 PM
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Post: #64RE: Revelation, chapter by chapter
8:10 The third angel sounded his trumpet, and a great star, blazing like a torch, fell from the sky on a third of the rivers and on the springs of water – 11 the name of the star is Wormwood. A third of the waters turned bitter, and many people died from the waters that had become bitter.
The prophet Isaiah wrote a taunt against Babylon for when God would release the Jews from bondage:
"How you have fallen from heaven,
O morning star, son of the dawn!
You have been cast down to the earth,
you who once laid low the nations!
You said in your heart,
“I will ascend to heaven;
I will raise my throne
above the stars of God;
I will sit enthroned on the mount of assembly,
on the utmost heights of the sacred mountain.
I will ascend above the tops of the clouds;
I will make myself like the Most High.” (Isaiah 14:12-14)
This nation that raised itself "above the throne of God" was cast down to the grave.
Similarly, both Tyre (in Ezekiel 2 and Egypt (Ezekiel 31) became haughty, godlike... and were suitably punished.
More specifically, Jesus has already told us that stars, by themselves, can symbolize angels - "The seven stars are the angels of the seven churches." (Rev 1:20)
Does this symbolize a specific angel - perhaps Satan - falling from the sky?
Perhaps. But the name of this star is Wormwood. In his final commendation to the nation of Israel before he died, Moses said to the people:
"Make sure there is no man or woman, clan or tribe among you today whose heart turns away from the Lord our God to go and worship the gods of those nations; make sure there is no root among you that produces such bitter poison [literally "wormwood"]." (Deuteronomy 29:1
It was thus early established as a symbol of apostasy from God. Before their first exile, Jehovah warned:
"The Lord said, “It is because they have forsaken my law, which I set before them; they have not obeyed me or followed my law. Instead, they have followed the stubbornness of their hearts; they have followed the Baals, as their fathers taught them.” Therefore, this is what the Lord Almighty, the God of Israel, says: “See, I will make this people eat bitter food [literally, "wormwood"] and drink poisoned water. I will scatter them among nations that neither they nor their fathers have known, and I will pursue them with the sword until I have destroyed them.”" (Jeremiah 9:13-16)
"Among the prophets of Jerusalem I have seen something horrible... They are all like Sodom to me; the people of Jerusalem are like Gomorrah.” Therefore, this is what the Lord Almighty says concerning the prophets:
“I will make them eat bitter food [literally, "wormwood"]
and drink poisoned water,
because from the prophets of Jerusalem
ungodliness has spread throughout the land.”" (Jer 23:13-15)
Thus, the star's name is Wormwood, which both represents an apostasy and was the punishment for apostasy.
The nation of Israel had once again apostatized from their God - and so once again, God was punishing them for it. Their waters were to become bitter.
This is in contrast to the true prophets, who could reverse bitter waters into healing ones. An example is that of Elisha, who was being entertained in Jericho:
"The men of the city said to Elisha, “Look, our lord, this town is well situated, as you can see, but the water is bad and the land is unproductive.” “Bring me a new bowl,” he said, “and put salt in it.” So they brought it to him. Then he went out to the spring and threw the salt into it, saying, “This is what the Lord says: ‘I have healed this water. Never again will it cause death or make the land unproductive.’ ” And the water has remained wholesome to this day, according to the word Elisha had spoken." (2 Kings 2:19-22)
In an ironic twist, Josephus makes reference to this very passage, right while describing Vespasian's desire to finish the Jewish war, rushing to Jericho to capture it. Jericho had two great lakes - both of which were of the exact opposite nature. Tiberias was sweet and fruitful, but Asphaltitis (the Dead Sea) was "salt and unfruitful".
This Dead Sea, reports Josephus, "cast up black clods of bitumen in many parts of it", which people would draw up into their ships. Furthemore, the land of Sodom bordered this lake. "It is related how, for the impiety of its inhabitants it was burnt by lightening; in consequence of which there are still the remainders of that divine fire; and the traces of the five cities are still to be seen, as well as the ashes growing in their fruits, which fruits have a color as if they were fit to be eaten; but if you pluck them with your hands, they will dissolve into smoke and ashes. And thus what is related of this land of Sodom hath these marks of credibility which our very sight affords us." (Wars of The Jews, Book 4, Chapter
Indeed, this lake Asphaltitis (what we would call the Dead Sea) displayed its spectacle of carnage in a more dramatic way than normal, because of its land such as the Dead Sea, as Josephus reports:
"Now, this destruction that fell upon the Jews, as it was not inferior to any of the rest in itself, so did it still appear greater than it really was; and this, because not only the whole of the country through which they had fled was filled with slaughter, and Jordan could not be passed over, by reason of the dead bodies that were in it, but because the Lake Asphaltitis was also full of dead bodies, that were carried down into it by the river. And now, Placidus, after this good success that he had, fell violently upon the neighbouring smaller cities and villages; when he took Abila, and Julias, and Bezemoth, and all those that lay as far as the lake Asphaltitis, and put such of the deserters into each of them as he though proper. He then put his soldiers on board the ships, and slew such as had fled to the lake, insomuch that all Perea had either surrendered themselves, or were taken by the Romans, as far as Macherus."
So the symbology and the reality interlock in many intriguing ways.
In symbology: Wormwood represented, and was the punishment for, apostasy. A star named Wormwood blazes like a torch and falls upon a third of the waters, making them bitter and causing many people to die.
In reality: Sodom is destroyed by fire from heaven, on the border of the Dead Sea, near Jordan, the place where Elisha healed their waters! - Jordan, in the Jewish war is the scene of much bloodshed, with dead bodies filling the Jordan river, and floating on the Dead Sea!
I am not saying this event is definitely symbolized by the "third trumpet", because I suspect the first four trumpets collectively symbolize all of the terrible events that took place, particularly on the Jews, but to a lesser extent throughout the whole empire (as we'll see), during this time of trouble for the Jews - all this even before the Romans had even come upon Jerusalem!
8:12 The fourth angel sounded his trumpet, and a third of the sun was struck, a third of the moon, and a third of the stars, so that a third of them turned dark. A third of the day was without light, and also a third of the night.
This is another evidence that we are dealing with symbology here, for earlier on in the "sixth seal", the sun and moon had been darkened. So how can now only a third of them be darkened?
The answer is, that if John is employing symbology, then the sun can be darkened as many times as the author likes - it is symbolic.
We saw how sun and moon darkening was a Jewish idiom as a portent for the fall of nations, peoples and national rulers.
Upon the fall of Pharaoh, Jehovah said: "When I snuff you out, I will cover the heavens and darken their stars; I will cover the sun with a cloud, and the moon will not give its light. All the shining lights in the heavens I will darken over you; I will bring darkness over your land... For this is what the Sovereign LORD says: “ ‘The sword of the king of Babylon will come against you. I will cause your hordes to fall by the swords of mighty men— the most ruthless of all nations. They will shatter the pride of Egypt, and all her hordes will be overthrown." (Ezekiel 32:7-8, 11-12)
Both within Jerusalem, and across the Empire itself, symbolic suns, moons and stars were darkening.
Josephus reports that, just after Vespasian's conquest of Jericho, the emperor Nero died, after having reigned just over 13 years. Galba is apointed emperor, but reigns for just 7 months and 7 days (according to Josephus). He is assassinated in the marketplace, and Otho is appointed emperor.
But civil war breaks out in Italy, the very capital of the Empire! Otho reigns just 3 months and 2 days, and is replaced by Vitellius. Vitellius fills his Rome with his armies, and were ready to plunder their own cities treasures.
However, Vespasian's own soldiers agree that Vespasian would make a better emperor than Vitellius, and so proclaim him such. After virtually being forced to accept the office of emperor by his soldiers, and being reminded of the prediction made by Josephus, he accepts the position, and goes off to get support for his position from the governor of Egypt, who supports him.
Vespasian thus heads to Rome to take the emperorship. Many bloody battles are fought in Rome until Vitellius is killed, having been emperor for just over 8 months (according to Josephus) - and the whole of the empire declare Vespasian emperor. His son Titus is sent to destroy Jerusalem.
So just after Vespasian's victory over Jericho, which may be alluded to in the third trumpet, the great "star" of the Roman empire, Nero, dies after a 13 year rule, and three other emperors arise, none of which last more than a year in power - and civil war breaks out in Italy. In symbolic terms, a third of the sun, moon and stars were darkened.
Meantime, in Jerusalem itself during this time, the zeolats who were tormenting the population were joined by another group headed by Simon of Gerasa, and the sedition was eventually parted into 3 factions. The civil war in Jerusalem grew so great that, during a festival, many of the priests were slaughtered by the darts being thrown from the Temple.
So both the empire and Jerusalem itself, a third of the luminaries were darkened in a symbolic sense - a "time of testing" for the whole earth.
~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~
8:13 As I watched, I heard an eagle that was flying in midair call out in a loud voice: “Woe! Woe! Woe to the inhabitants of the earth, because of the trumpet blasts about to be sounded by the other three angels!”
Much as the previous trumpets seem to have been quite devastating, they are nothing compared to the last three trumpets, which are called woes.
The "great tribulation" on Jerusalem was about to get so much worse.
It is an eagle that declares these as woes. The eagle has a dual nature in scripture. On the one hand, it signified the salvation God provided for Israel:
"For the Lord's portion is his people,
Jacob his allotted inheritance.
In a desert land he found him,
in a barren and howling waste.
He shielded him and cared for him;
he guarded him as the apple of his eye,
like an eagle that stirs up its nest
and hovers over its young,
that spreads its wings to catch them
and carries them on its pinions." (Deuteronomy 32:9-11)
But the eagle is also a fearsome bird of prey, associated with blood and death and rotting flesh:
"Does the eagle soar at your command
and build his nest on high?
He dwells on a cliff and stays there at night;
a rocky crag is his stronghold.
From there he seeks out his food;
his eyes detect it from afar.
His young ones feast on blood,
and where the slain are, there is he." (Job 39:27-30)
Jesus quoted from Job in his Olivet Prophecy:
"Wherever there is a carcass, there the vultures will gather." (Mathew 24:2
The carcasses are about to be gathered in Jerusalem itself, as the last three trumpets are blasted...
09-29-2007 06:52 PM
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Post: #71RE: Revelation, chapter by chapter
REVELATION CHAPTER 9
9:1 The fifth angel sounded his trumpet, and I saw a star that had fallen from the sky to the earth. The star was given the key to the shaft of the Abyss. 9:2 When he opened the Abyss, smoke rose from it like the smoke from a gigantic furnace. The sun and sky were darkened by the smoke from the Abyss. 9:3 And out of the smoke locusts came down upon the earth and were given power like that of scorpions of the earth. 9:4 They were told not to harm the grass of the earth or any plant or tree, but only those people who did not have the seal of God on their foreheads.
The drama is intensified with the "fifth trumpet", and the first of the three woes.
This time John sees a "star that had fallen from the sky to the earth". Once again, we see an allusion to the Babylon king as a "morning star" that had been "cast down to the earth" (Isaiah 14:12-14).
However, this "star" is then given "the key to the shaft of the Abyss".
It is impossible for a physical star to be given or to use a key, so we know this is symbolic.
However, Jesus tells us in chapter 1 that a "star" can mean an "angel", so this could be an angel.
He is given "the key to the shaft of the Abyss". This is the first time the "abyss" is mentioned in Revelation, and it won't be the last. However, it is not anything new in Scriptural terms.
The "abyss" first appears in Genesis 1:2: "Now the earth was formless and empty, darkness was over the surface of the deep [Hebrew "thehohm", Greek "abyssou" - abyss], and the Spirit of God was hovering over the waters."
The book "Days Of Vengeance" shows the many uses of abyss in scripture:
"The Abyss is the farthest extreme from heaven (Gen. 49:25; Deut. 33:13) and from the high mountains (Ps. 36:6). It is used in Scripture as a reference to the deepest parts of the sea (Job 28:14; 38:16; Ps. 33:7) and to subterranean rivers and vaults of water (Deut. 8:7; Job 38:16), whence the waters of the Flood came (Gen. 7:11; 8:2; Prov. 3:20; 8:24), and which nourished the kingdom of Assyria (Ezek. 31:4, 15). The Red Sea crossing of the covenant people is repeatedly likened to a passage through the Abyss (Ps. 77:16; 106:9; Isa. 44:27; 51:10; 63:13). The prophet Ezekiel threatened Tyre with a great desolation
of the land, in which God would bring up the Abyss to cover the city with a new Flood, bringing its people down to the pit in the lower parts of the earth (Ezek. 26:19-21), and Jonah spoke of the Abyss in terms of
excommunication from God’s presence, a banishment from the Temple (Jon. 2:2-6). The domain of the Dragon (Job 41:31; Ps. 148:7; Rev. 11:7; 17:, the prison of the demons (Luke 8:31; Rev. 20:1-3; cf. 2 Pet. 2:4; Jude 6), and the realm of the dead (Rom. 10:7) are all called by the name Abyss." (Days Of Vengeance, p105)
So in summary - it is a place far away from God's throne, the very deep of the ocean, and a prison for the demons.
(Peter refers to the place as "Tartarus", which is also a reference to the deep of the abyss - see NWT footnote to Job 41:32: "'And the Tartarus of the abyss as a captive,' LXX.)
When the 70 disciples reported to Jesus that even the demons were made subject to them, Jesus said: "I saw Satan fall like lightning from heaven. I have given you authority to trample on snakes and scorpions and to overcome all the power of the enemy; nothing will harm you." (Luke 10:18,19)
This fallen "star" opens the abyss, and smoke comes out of it, as a prelude to the horde of demonic creatures that emerge...
... and out of that smoke, locusts "came down upon the earth".
Locust swarms are symbolically used in scripture to represent invading armies. For example, in the book of Joel, written about 820BC, Jehovah foretells a destructive army that would devastate his land:
"Wake up, you drunkards, and weep!
Wail, all you drinkers of wine;
wail because of the new wine,
for it has been snatched from your lips.
A nation has invaded my land,
powerful and without number;
it has the teeth of a lion,
the fangs of a lioness.
It has laid waste my vines
and ruined my fig trees.
It has stripped off their bark
and thrown it away,
leaving their branches white.
Mourn like a virgin in sackcloth
grieving for the husband of her youth.
Grain offerings and drink offerings
are cut off from the house of the Lord.
The priests are in mourning,
those who minister before the Lord." (Joel 1:5-9)
Although this was prophetically foretelling the impending invasion by Nebuchadnezzar, John draws upon the same symbolic language, because something similar was happening in John's time - Jehovah was again gathering a large military army to punish His people.
In contrast to the locusts in Joel, the locusts of Revelation are told "told not to harm the grass of the earth or any plant or tree, but only those people who did not have the seal of God on their foreheads." This is a punishment on human beings.
This begs the question: What about those with the seal? What happens to them? If we put these verses into the context of the destruction of Jerusalem, the answer becomes self-evident - the ones with the seal have already escaped, having heeded Jesus warning to "flee"! The only ones left in that city are those "who did not have the seal of God on their foreheads" - divine retribution is now being turned specifically on them.
These locusts "were given power like that of scorpions of the earth." As I quoted above, Jesus compared the demons to "snakes [or serpents] and scorpions". (Luke 10:18,19)
So once again we are given an impression of the demonic nature of these locusts and the fallen "star" who is given the key to let them out.
Why is this "star" given the key to the abyss in the first place? Jesus explains, concerning the wicked generation to which he preached:
"The men of Nineveh will stand up at the judgment with this generation and condemn it; for they repented at the preaching of Jonah, and now one greater than Jonah is here.
The Queen of the South will rise at the judgment with this generation and condemn it; for she came from the ends of the earth to listen to Solomon's wisdom, and now one greater than Solomon is here.
“When an evil spirit comes out of a man, it goes through arid places seeking rest and does not find it.
Then it says, ‘I will return to the house I left.’ When it arrives, it finds the house unoccupied, swept clean and put in order.
Then it goes and takes with it seven other spirits more wicked than itself, and they go in and live there. And the final condition of that man is worse than the first. That is how it will be with this wicked generation.” (Mathew 12:41-45)
So this is the vengeance of God upon that "wicked generation" of Jews that murdered his Son and rejected his message: the demonic hordes were to be unleashed on that city!
09-29-2007 08:05 PM
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Post: #72RE: Revelation, chapter by chapter
9:5 They were not given power to kill them, but only to torture them for five months. And the agony they suffered was like that of the sting of a scorpion when it strikes a man. 6 During those days men will seek death, but will not find it; they will long to die, but death will elude them. 7 The locusts looked like horses prepared for battle. On their heads they wore something like crowns of gold, and their faces resembled human faces. 8 Their hair was like women's hair, and their teeth were like lions' teeth. 9 They had breastplates like breastplates of iron, and the sound of their wings was like the thundering of many horses and chariots rushing into battle. 10 They had tails and stings like scorpions, and in their tails they had power to torment people for five months. 11 They had as king over them the angel of the Abyss, whose name in Hebrew is Abaddon, and in Greek, Apollyon. 12 The first woe is past; two other woes are yet to come.[
Why does the locust plague last five months?
"This figure is, first of all, a reference to the period of five months, from May through September, when locusts normally appeared. (The unusual feature is that these locusts remain for the entire period, engaging in
constant torment of the population.)" (Days Of Vengeance, p105)
They were not given power to kill, but to torture. Josephus gives us ample demonstration that Jerusalem was being over-ridden by demonic hordes.
First, as we already discussed, the Idumeans were secretly let into Jerusalem by the zealots, on the night of the thunder, lightenings and earthquake.
The Idumeans fell upon the people "as upon a flock of profane animals, and cut their throats".
However, Josephus describes the torments on the noblemen and youth:
"But for the noblemen and youth, they first caught them and bound them, and shut them up in prison, and put off their slaughter, in hopes that some of them would turn over to their party; but not one of them would comply with their desires, but all of them preferred death before being enrolled among such wicked wretches as acted against their own country.
But this refusal of theirs brought upon them terrible torments; for they were so scourged and tortured, that their bodies were not able to sustain their torments, till at length, and with difficulty, they had the favor to be slain.
Those whom they caught in the daytime, were slain in the night, and then their bodies were carried out and thrown away, that there might be room for other prisoners; and the terror that was upon the people was so great, that no one had courage enough either to weep only for the dead man that was related to him, or bury him; but those that were shut up in their own houses, could only shed tears in secret, and durst not even groan without great caution, lest any of their enemies should hear them; for if they did, those that mourned for others soon underwent the same death with those whom they mourned for." (Wars Of The Jews, Book 4, Chapter 5)
Then, once the Idumeans left the city, the zealots tormented the population, not even letting dead people be buried. Josephus, in writing about this, says:
"Nay the terror was so very great, that he who survived called them that were first dead happy, as being at rest already; as did those that were under torture in the prisons, declare, that, upon this comparison, those that lay unburied were the happiest." (Book 4, Chapter 6)
As Josephus tells us, the people had more to fear from the Zealots than from the Romans:
"... their inclination to plunder was insatiable, as was their zeal in searching the houses of the rich; and for the murdering of the men, and abusing of the women, it was sport to them. They also devoured what spoils they had taken, together with their blood, and indulged themselves in feminine wantonness, without any disturbance till they were satiated therewith; while they decked their hair, and put on women's garments, and were besmeared over with ointments; and that they might appear very comely, they had paints under their eyes, and imitated, not only the ornaments, but also the lust of women, and were guilty of such intolerable uncleanness, and they invented unlawful pleasures of that sort.
And thus did they roll themselves up and down the city, as in a brothel house, and defiled it entirely with their impure actions; nay, while their faces looked like the faces of women, they killed with their right hands; and when their gait was effeminate, they presently attacked men, and became warriors, and drew their swords from under their finely dyed cloaks and ran everybody through whom they alighted upon." (Book 4, Chapter 9)
Yet, as if it wasn't already bad enough, there was no way for Jews to escape this torment, for yet a third tyrant - Simon of Gerasa - was outside the walls of the city, so as Josephus explains:
"Simon waited for such as ran away from John, and was the more bloody of the two: and he who had escaped the tyrant within the walls, was destroyed by the other that lay before the gates. So that all attempts of flying and deserting to the Romans were cut off, if any had a mind so to do."
However, the zealots, in order to free themselves from the rule of John, let Simon and his army into the city, and takes control of the city. The zealots take over the Temple, and the two parties fight it out. "These men also set their engines to cast darts and stones withal, upon those towers, with their archers and slingers."
So this was the situation Jerusalem found itself in, even before the Romans arrived at their doorstep:
"And now, as the city was engaged in a war on all sides, from these treacherous crowds of wicked men, the people of the city, between them, were like a great body torn in pieces. The aged men and the women were in such distress by their internal calamities, that they wished for the Romans, and earnestly hoped for an external war, in order to their delivery from their domestic miseries.
The citizens themselves were under a terrible consternation and fear; nor had they any opportunity of taking counsel, and of changing their conduct, nor were there any hopes of coming to an agreement with their enemies; nor could such as had a mind flee away; for guards were set at all places, and the heads of the robbers, although they were seditious one against another in other respects, yet did they agree in killing those that were for peace with the Romans, or were suspected of an inclination to desert to them, as their common enemies. They agreed in nothing but this, to kill those that were innocent.
The noise also of those that were fighting was incessant, both by day and by night; but the lamentations of those that mourned exceeded the other; nor was there ever any occasion for them to leave off their lamentations, because their calamities came perpetually one upon another, although the deep consternation they were in prevented their outward wailing; but, being constrained by their fear to conceal their inward passions, they were inwardly tormented, without daring to open their lips in groans.
Nor was any regard paid to those that were still alive, by their relations; nor was there any care taken of burial for those that were dead; the occasion of both which was this, that everyone despaired of himself; for those that were not among the seditious had no great desires of anything, as expecting for certain that they should very soon be destroyed; but, for the seditious themselves, they fought against each other, while they trod upon the dead bodies as they lay heaped one upon another, and taking up a mad rage from those dead bodies that were under their feet, became the fiercer thereupon.
They, moreover, were still inventing somewhat or other that was pernicious against themselves; and when they had resolved upon anything, they executed it without mercy, and omitted no method of torment or of barbarity." (Wars Of The Jews, Book 5, Chapter 1)
Back to John's vision - their king's "name in Hebrew is Abaddon, and in Greek, Apollyon".
The words "Abaddaon" and "Apollyon" mean Destruction and
Destroyer. Abaddon is used in the Old Testament for the realm of the dead, the “place of destruction” (Job 26:6; 28:22; 31:12; Ps. 88:11; Prov. 15:11; 27:20).
It seems, then, that this first woe, and the "fifth trumpet", represents the torments that faced the population of Jerusalem, (those remaining who did not have the seal of God), at the hands of the Idumeans, the followers of John (the Zealots) and Simon - just before the Romans came upon that city.
However, it appears we are also being clued in that this "band of wickedness" was also something demonic, like "locusts" and "scorpions" from the depths of the abyss, as the ultimate in divine vengeance.
It is little wonder, then, at the terrible atrocities that took place during that time, when those wicked men dressed as women, slaughtered and tortured and sank into depths of depravity that even Josephus struggled to relate, and the fear and terror that gripped the people, such that they pronounced dead people happy - even desiring that the Romans would come upon them, just to end their torment!
Their wish would soon be granted, in the second woe...
It may sound superfluous, but I think John is making a point about the reason this horrible plague is coming upon them. Two chapters ago we saw 144,000 sealed from every tribe of Israel, and a great multitude from every tribe, tongue, people and nation.
So, personally speaking, I think there are two reasons John mentions this: (1) Identity. Just so we know these are not God's "true" people who are being tormented. (2) Contrast. Those sealed are present in his narration (they were there 2 chapters ago), but not necessarily in the same location as those who are being tormented.
Just as, in the "sixth seal", everyone is asking the question, "Who can stand?"... and then John sees his vision of the 144,000 and the "great multitude", standing before the throne of God and of the Lamb! It provides a contrast between the world and the faithful - it's not so much about their physical location, but about whether they can stand before the throne of God or not.
That's my take, at any rate.
09-30-2007 10:04 AM
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Post: #75RE: Revelation, chapter by chapter
9:13 The sixth angel sounded his trumpet, and I heard a voice coming from the horns of the golden altar that is before God. 14 It said to the sixth angel who had the trumpet, “Release the four angels who are bound at the great river Euphrates.” 15 And the four angels who had been kept ready for this very hour and day and month and year were released to kill a third of mankind. 16 The number of the mounted troops was two hundred million. I heard their number.
The second "woe" begins.
This time, John hears a "voice coming from the horns of the golden altar that is before God". This is the same altar from which the prayers of the holy ones were earlier offered up before God, and in the "sixth seal", the blood of the holy ones was crying out from underneath this altar, asking "How long" before God would avenge their blood.
God told them to wait "a little longer" - but God's vengeance is not slow. Here, at the "sixth seal", the second woe begins.
The voice from the altar calls out to the 6th angel who has the 6th trumpet, saying: "Release the four angels who are bound at the great river Euphrates."
These 4 angels are not directly identified, but we saw mention of 4 angels earlier...
"After this I saw four angels standing at the four corners of the earth, holding back the four winds of the earth to prevent any wind from blowing on the land or on the sea or on any tree." (7:1)
One of the problems with the language of Revelation is the Greek word "ge" translated here as "earth" can also mean "land". See the following link for its many uses in the Greek scriptures:
http://cf.blueletterbible.org/lang/lexic...ersion=kjv
Something similar was said by Jehovah to Ezekiel: "Son of man, this is what the Sovereign LORD says to the land of Israel: The end! The end has come upon the four corners of the land [or "earth"]". (Ezekiel 7:2)
Now, at the "sixth seal", we see four angels who have been "bound at the great river Euphrates."
It seems, then, that there is a connection between the "four angels" holding back the "four winds of the earth [or land]", and the 4 angels who are bound at the Euphrates.
The Euphrates river was one of the boundaries of the land of Israel. As part of the promise to Abraham, God said: "To your descendants I give this land, from the river of Egypt to the great river, the Euphrates." (Genesis 15:1
This was confirmed by Moses, who said to the sons of Israel: "Your territory will extend from the desert to Lebanon, and from the Euphrates River to the western sea." (Deuteronomy 11:24)
So we are given yet another clue that this activity is specifically related to the land of Israel.
That these angels had been "bound" implies some kind of restraint on them. The apostle Peter uses similar language to describe the spirits who were disobedient in Noah's day:
"He was put to death in the body but made alive by the Spirit, through whom also he went and preached to the spirits in prison who disobeyed long ago when God waited patiently in the days of Noah while the ark was being built." (1 Peter 3:18-20)
Furthermore, in Revelation chapter 20, we see Satan himself being bound:
"And I saw an angel coming down out of heaven, having the key to the Abyss and holding in his hand a great chain. He seized the dragon, that ancient serpent, who is the devil, or Satan, and bound him for a thousand years." (Revelation 20:1,2)
So it appears that, just as we got a sense of the demonic nature of the hordes in the "fifth trumpet", we are being given a similar impression in the sixth.
Angels that had been bound are released, "who had been kept ready for this very hour and day and month and year were released to kill a third of mankind."
This gives us a clue as to how God can punish. In the book of Job, we see Satan accusing God of putting a protective hedge around Job. So God allows Satan to test Job: and we see fire from heaven which kills Job's family, as well as Job himself being struck with disease.
To those people, and even Job, it appeared as if God himself was bringing these plagues. However, we are given additional insights into the matter by the author of Job, which shows how it was Satan who was testing Job, by God's permission.
In a similar fashion, John is seeing his visions from a heavenly point of view. And from this vantage point, it seems as if the demonic hordes are being released from their restraints, and are being permitted to totally invade the territory that is bounded by the Euphrates - the land of Israel!
We also see something similar when Satan is bound: he is released again for a short while:
"When the thousand years are over, Satan will be released from his prison and will go out to deceive the nations in the four corners of the earth–Gog and Magog–to gather them for battle." (Revelation 20:7,
At this "sixth trumpet", John hears the number of the army: "The number of the mounted troops was two hundred million. I heard their number."
This has, of course, caused much speculation on the part of some: just how could such a large army ever be raised? Scenarios such as a Chinese or Russian invasion have been detailed by evangelicals - who, incidentally, have sold plenty of books with their apocalyptic scenarios.
The phrase used by John is "two myriads of myriads". When taken literally, myriad means ten thousand. So if we take this passage literally, it means "two times then thousand times ten thousand" - which is 200 million.
However, as one commentator said, "attempts to reduce this expression to arithmetic miss the point. A ‘double myriad of myriads’ is an indefinite number of incalculable immensity." (The Book Of Revelation, Robert H. Mounce.)
Besides, I would also add that it is angels that are counted in these quantities in scripture. Earlier on, John saw in his vision of heaven:
"Then I looked and heard the voice of many angels, numbering thousands upon thousands, and ten thousand times ten thousand [literally, "myriads of myriads"]. They encircled the throne and the living creatures and the elders." (Revelation 5:11)
Daniel also had a similar vision, of a Court in heaven:
"“As I looked,
“thrones were set in place,
and the Ancient of Days took his seat.
His clothing was as white as snow;
the hair of his head was white like wool.
His throne was flaming with fire,
and its wheels were all ablaze.
A river of fire was flowing,
coming out from before him.
Thousands upon thousands attended him;
ten thousand times ten thousand stood before him.
The court was seated,
and the books were opened. (Daniel 7:9-11)
So I think John's use of "two myriads of myriads" here is giving us another indication as to the source - it is angelic, but of a demonic nature, as these angels are bound.
That they kill a third is intriguing, for God uses imagery of thirds in his punishment of his people. To Ezekiel, God said:
"A third of your people will die of the plague or perish by famine inside you; a third will fall by the sword outside your walls; and a third I will scatter to the winds and pursue with drawn sword." (Ezekiel 5:12)
9:17 The horses and riders I saw in my vision looked like this: Their breastplates were fiery red, dark blue, and yellow as sulfur. The heads of the horses resembled the heads of lions, and out of their mouths came fire, smoke and sulfur. 18 A third of mankind was killed by the three plagues of fire, smoke and sulfur that came out of their mouths. 19 The power of the horses was in their mouths and in their tails; for their tails were like snakes, having heads with which they inflict injury. 20 The rest of mankind that were not killed by these plagues still did not repent of the work of their hands; they did not stop worshiping demons, and idols of gold, silver, bronze, stone and wood–idols that cannot see or hear or walk. 21 Nor did they repent of their murders, their magic arts, their sexual immorality or their thefts.
The emperor Vespasian's son Titus eventually reached Jerusalem, to finish the war with the Jews.
The Romans set up their seige weapons to begin the assault upon Jerusalem. Josephus describes these weapons:
"The engines, that all the legions had already prepared for them, were admirably contrived; but still more extraordinary ones belonged to the tenth legion; those that threw darts and those that threw stones, were more forcible and larger than the rest, by which they not only repelled the excursions of the Jews, but drove those away that were upon the walls also."
Josephus mentions an intriguing aspect about the Romans when they launched the stones, which seems directly related to the reason these woes were being brought upon them:
"Now, the stones that were cast were of the weight of a talent, and were carried two furlongs and further. The blow they gave was no way to be sustained, not only by those that stood first in the way, but by those that were beyond them for a great space. As for the Jews, they at first watched the coming of the stone, for it was of a white color, and could therefore not only be perceived by the great noise it made, but could be seen also before it came by its brightness; accordingly the watchmen that sat upon the towers gave them notice when the engine was let go, and the stone came from it, and cried out aloud in their own country language, "THE SON COMETH:" so those that were in its way stood off, and threw themselves down upon the ground; by which means, and by their thus guarding themselves, the stone fell down and did them no harm. But the Romans contrived how to prevent that by blacking the stone, who then could aim at them with success, when the stone was not discerned beforehand, as it had been till then; and so they destroyed many of them at one blow." (Wars Of The Jews, Book 5, Chapter 6)
So it appears the Romans were unwittingly participating in some kind of a divine symbolic drama! For they launched their stones with the cry, "THE SON COMETH"... yet when the stone was white, and could be perceived beforehand, the Jews escaped harm! When it was blackened, they were killed!
Jesus had warned them, many decades before, with regard to Jerusalem:
"If you, even you, had only known on this day what would bring you peace–but now it is hidden from your eyes. The days will come upon you when your enemies will build an embankment against you and encircle you and hem you in on every side. They will dash you to the ground, you and the children within your walls. They will not leave one stone on another, because you did not recognize the time of God's coming to you." (Luke 19:41-44)
Now, God was coming to them again! Just as he came against them in ancient times by Nebuchadnezzar, this time it was Titus.
What does it mean that "a third of mankind was killed by the three plagues of fire, smoke and sulfur that came out of their mouths"?
I think this "third" represents the deaths of of those who died in this war, particularly by the "fire, smoke and sulfur" of the war - but also by famine.
Chapters 8 and 9, which represent the blowing of the first six trumpets, in my opinion represent the fall of the Jewish nation, as foretold by the prophets and Jesus.
This tribulation is most intense upon Jerusalem herself: and Josephus reports that the number of people who perished in the whole seige were 1,100,000... some of whom were Jewish proselytes.
However, the tribulation was not confined to Jerusalem. Across the Roman empire, Jews were being persecuted and killed - as if some divine fury were sweeping across the world.
So just before Cestius Gallus came against Jerusalem the first time (in 66CE), Josephus reports upon the slaughter of the Jews in Cesarea:
"Now the people of Cesarea had slain the Jews that were among them on the very same day and hour, which one would think must have come to pass by the direction of Providence; insomuch that in one hour's time above twenty thousand Jews were killed, and all Cesarea was emptied of its Jewish inhabitants."
The Jews take out their anger over this, in some of the cities of Syria, such as Philadelphia and Sebonitis, setting fire to some cities, and demolishing others such as Gaza. However, the Syrians exacted further revenge, as Josephus reports:
"However, the Syrians were even with the Jews in the multitude of the men whom they slew; for they killed those whom they caught in their cities, and that not only out of the hatred they bare them, as formerly, but to prevent the danger under whcih they were from them, so that the disorders in all Syria were terrible, and every city was divided into two armies encamped one against another, and the preservation of the one party was in the destruction of the other; so the daytime was spent in shedding of blood, and the night in fear, - which was of the two the more terrible...
... It was then common to see cities filled with dead bodies, still lying unburied, and those of old men, mixed with infants, all dead, and scattered about together; women also lay amongst them, without any covering for their nakedness: you might then see the whole province full of inexpressible calamities, while the dread of still more barbarous practices which were threatened, was everywhere greater than what had been already perpetrated." (Wars Of The Jews, Book 2, Chapter
So all this slaughter came about immediately before Cestius Gallus came against Jerusalem in 66CE. This is why it was a "time of testing" for the whole world, not just for the Jews.
The trumpet blasts, in my opinion, echo the suffering of the Jews throughout the entire war.
After all the plagues, they fail to repent. "Nor did they repent of their murders, their magic arts, their sexual immorality or their thefts."
Reading Josephus leaves you in no doubt that these things were committed in abundance during their war of rebellion against Caesar (and, ultimately, against God).
10-03-2007 09:55 PM
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Post: #78RE: Revelation, chapter by chapter
REVELATION CHAPTER 10
10:1 Then I saw another mighty angel coming down from heaven. He was robed in a cloud, with a rainbow above his head; his face was like the sun, and his legs were like fiery pillars. 2 He was holding a little scroll, which lay open in his hand. He planted his right foot on the sea and his left foot on the land, 3 and he gave a loud shout like the roar of a lion. When he shouted, the voices of the seven thunders spoke.
Just as we saw a pause in the action between the "sixth" and the "seventh" seals, to allow (in my opinion) the escape of Gentile Christians, and to add to the climax... here, there is another interlude, this time between the "sixth" and the "seventh" trumpet.
John sees a mighty angel coming down from heaven, robed in a cloud, with a rainbow above his head, face shining like the sun, and legs like fiery pillars.
Who is this mighty angel? We are not explicitly told, but the implication is that it is the Lord Jesus Christ!
Jesus himself said that he would be "coming on the clouds of heaven." (Mathew 26:64)
A rainbow was earlier seen around the throne of God (4:3), and Jesus Christ himself stood in the midst of the throne. (5:6) The rainbow was also the symbol of the covenant made between God and men, after the Flood. It was a reminder that God promised never again to bring a Flood. It is a symbol of peace between God and man.
Thus, even in the midst of the horrors from these trumpet blasts, there is the possibility of reconciliation, as we shall see.
The face of the angel was "like the sun". When Christ was transfigured, "his face shone like the sun". (Mathew 17:2) Indeed, when John first sees Christ in vision, his "face was like the sun shining in all its brilliance". (Rev 1:16)
"His legs were like fiery pillars". This reminds us of the pillar of fire and cloud that led Israel through the wilderness, under the charge of a mighty angel.
The angel holds "a little scroll, which lay open in his hand".
We recall that these visions commenced with the Lamb being given a sealed scroll, which only he could open. He then began to remove its seven seals.
Now that the seals have all been removed, John sees the Lamb as a mighty angel, holding the opened scroll in his hand!
As I discussed earlier, the scroll with seven seals was a testament, or will... which could only be opened upon the death of the will-maker.
Christ's blood opened the way for both Jews and Gentiles to obtain forgiveness of sins - and that is the message that went out to both Jew and Gentile after Christ's death.
The angel "planted his right foot on the sea and his left foot on the land".
If the land is particularly the land of Israel, as it appears from previous chapters, then the "sea" could represent the Gentile nations. Later on, in chapter 13, we see a "wild beast" arising out of the "sea". Yet Christ is Lord of both the "land" and the "sea".
The angel gave "a loud shout like the roar of a lion". The prophet Amos said:
When a trumpet sounds in a city,
do not the people tremble?
When disaster comes to a city,
has not the Lord caused it?
Surely the Sovereign Lord does nothing
without revealing his plan
to his servants the prophets.
The lion has roared—
who will not fear?
The Sovereign Lord has spoken—
who can but prophesy? (Amos 3:6-
The great city Jerusalem was about to be trampled, and the Temple was about to be destroyed, but the Lion of the tribe of Judah was about to shout "like the roar of a lion" so that the nations, too, would hear.
10-03-2007 10:44 PM
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Post: #79RE: Revelation, chapter by chapter
10:4 And when the seven thunders spoke, I was about to write; but I heard a voice from heaven say, “Seal up what the seven thunders have said and do not write it down.” 5 Then the angel I had seen standing on the sea and on the land raised his right hand to heaven. 6 And he swore by him who lives for ever and ever, who created the heavens and all that is in them, the earth and all that is in it, and the sea and all that is in it, and said, “There will be no more delay! 7 But in the days when the seventh angel is about to sound his trumpet, the mystery of God will be accomplished, just as he announced to his servants the prophets.”
So just what do the mysterious "seven thunders" actually say?
There has been an immense amount of speculation on this, but the simple answer is, we do not know - because John is told not to write it down!
A voice out of heaven tells John to "seal up", or keep secret, what they say. Presumably, then, John hears what they say, but is not allowed to write them down.
In Daniel's prophecy of the king of the north vs south, he is told to "make secret the words and seal up the book, until the time of the end". (Daniel 12:4)
This was because the vision was for a long time in Daniel's future. It was not for him to know their interpretation.
Thus, it's possible that the "seven thunders" allude to something in the future that John was not allowed share.
Nevertheless, the angel that stands on the sea and land now raises his right hand to heaven, and swears by Almighty God...
"There will be no more delay!"
As I already showed, there was a "delay" between the 6th and 7th seals, which in my opinion represented the opportunity for Jewish Christians to escape the tribulation upon Jerusalem, and also provided an opportunity to pictorially show the "great crowd" of Gentiles, who had put their faith in the Lamb as King.
Here, in chapter 10, that concept of delay is reinforced. There is indeed a pause between the blowing of the sixth and seventh trumpets.
This is also reflected in the chronology of the Jewish war. Jerusalem had three walls, and the Romans had breached two of the walls, and since the city was being beseiged, there was a terrible famine that struck the already tormented population, to the point where the robbers in Jerusalem had invented torture devices to torment people whom they suspected of having food - and they basically suspected everybody.
However, Titus did not want to destroy the Temple or the city, so before breaching the third and final wall, Titus sent Josephus to encourage the Jews to repent of their badness, and gave them one final opportunity to flee.
"As Josephus was speaking thus with a loud voice, the seditious would neither yield to what he said, nor did they deem it safe for them to alter their conduct; but as for the people, they had a great inclination to desert to the Romans; accordingly, some of them sold what they had, and even the most precious things that had been laid up as treasures by them, for a very small matter, and swallowed down pieces of gold, that they might not be found out by the robbers; and when they had escaped to the Romans, went to stool, and had wherewithal to provide plentifully for themselves; for Titus let a great number of them go away into the country, whither they pleased." (Wars Of The Jews, Book 5, Chapter 10)
This act of mercy on the part of Titus spared some from the terrible deaths that were to follow, because shortly after this, Titus built a wall around the city itself, so that nobody could escape (in fulfillment of Jesus' own prophecy about this) - and upwards of five hundred Jews a day were crucified before the city walls, in the hope of getting them to capitulate out of fear.
Meanwhile, back in John's vision...
The angel declares: "In the days when the seventh angel is about to sound his trumpet, the mystery of God will be accomplished, just as he announced to his servants the prophets."
What is this "mystery of God"? In closing his letter to the Roman church, Paul says:
"Now to him who is able to establish you by my gospel and the proclamation of Jesus Christ, according to the revelation of the mystery hidden for long ages past, but now revealed and made known through the prophetic writings by the command of the eternal God, so that all nations might believe and obey him– to the only wise God be glory forever through Jesus Christ! Amen." (Romans 16:25-27)
The "mystery" is nothing less than the good news, that people of the nations can obtain salvation, through Jesus Christ! This is the "mystery" that runs throughout the prophetic scriptures - from Moses, who promised a prophet like him, through Isaiah, who predicted the Messiah, and Daniel, who even counted the number of years to the coming of the Messiah.
The purpose of this revelation of God's mystery, as Paul states, was "so that all nations might believe and obey him".
Now, in Revelation 10, God's mystery was to be "accomplished". The Jewish nation had to fall, in order for the Gentiles to be reconciled to God. Earlier in his letter to the Romans, Paul said:
"But if their transgression means riches for the world, and their loss means riches for the Gentiles, how much greater riches will their fullness bring! I am talking to you Gentiles. Inasmuch as I am the apostle to the Gentiles, I make much of my ministry in the hope that I may somehow arouse my own people to envy and save some of them. For if their rejection is the reconciliation of the world, what will their acceptance be but life from the dead?" (Romans 11:12-15)
So in order for the "world" to be reconciled to God, the Jewish nation as a whole had to be rejected, although as we have previously seen, Paul made plain that a "remnant" would be saved, namely the Jews who put their faith in Christ and so fled the "great tribulation" that would come upon Jerusalem.
Thus, the fall of Israel would mean "the reconciliation of the world". Despite the imminent destruction of Jerusalem, the nations would be taught that God had not failed, but rather, this was His purpose.
10-06-2007 10:31 AM
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Post: #80RE: Revelation, chapter by chapter
10:8 Then the voice that I had heard from heaven spoke to me once more: “Go, take the scroll that lies open in the hand of the angel who is standing on the sea and on the land.” 9 So I went to the angel and asked him to give me the little scroll. He said to me, “Take it and eat it. It will turn your stomach sour, but in your mouth it will be as sweet as honey.” 10 I took the little scroll from the angel's hand and ate it. It tasted as sweet as honey in my mouth, but when I had eaten it, my stomach turned sour. 11 Then I was told, “You must prophesy again about many peoples, nations, languages and kings.”
Here we see the interlude being used for a purpose. John is told to "take the scroll that lies open". Furthermore, he is told to eat it!
This is similar to what happened to Ezekiel. God told him: "“Son of man, I am sending you to the Israelites, to a rebellious nation that has rebelled against me; they and their fathers have been in revolt against me to this very day." (Ezekiel 2:3)
Ezekiel is then given a scroll: "Then I looked, and I saw a hand stretched out to me. In it was a scroll, which he unrolled before me. On both sides of it were written words of lament and mourning and woe. And he said to me, “Son of man, eat what is before you, eat this scroll; then go and speak to the house of Israel.” So I opened my mouth, and he gave me the scroll to eat. Then he said to me, “Son of man, eat this scroll I am giving you and fill your stomach with it.” So I ate it, and it tasted as sweet as honey in my mouth." (Ezekiel 2:9-3:3)
However, the scroll that John is given "will turn your stomach sour", but would taste "as sweet as honey".
This was a message both bitter and sweet at the same time. We can perhaps understand this when we see to whom he would be speaking. The angel tells him:
"You must prophesy again about many peoples, nations, languages and kings."
We have already seen this kind of language before, concerning the "great multitude", who were "from every nation, tribe, people and language" (7:9). The Jewish term for these people are Gentiles!
Thus, there is a subtle shift now in the prophetic pattern. As Jerusalem is about to be trampled (which is described in the next chapter), the focus shifts more and more to the nations that are doing the trampling.
This will be a bittersweet prophecy, because John will no doubt be putting his life in danger by prophecying about the nations that will do the trampling.
Still, John was already in exile on Patmos for bearing witness to Jesus, so his being obedient to the angel would not likely have been a problem for him.
Now, with the swallowing down of the opened scroll, the events at Jerusalem were coming to their climax, which would have significant meaning for the "nations"...
10-06-2007 10:58 AM
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Post: #81RE: Revelation, chapter by chapter
REVELATION CHAPTER 11
11:1 I was given a reed like a measuring rod and was told, “Go and measure the temple of God and the altar, and count the worshipers there. 2 But exclude the outer court; do not measure it, because it has been given to the Gentiles. They will trample on the holy city for 42 months."
We now come to the climax of the seven trumpets!
Revelation chapter 11 is one of the most symbolically rich passages of scripture, for it draws upon many prophetic and historical books from the Hebrew scriptures, as we shall see.
First off, John is given a reed like a measuring rod, and is told to measure the temple, the altar and the worshippers.
We have already seen how Revelation alludes to Zechariah, in the four horsemen, but now at Revelation 11, the references surface once again.
Zechariah was written at a time during the restoration of the Jews to their homeland after their exile from Babylon. Jehovah was promising peace and security to the Jews, and he did this by measuring Jerusalem:
"Then I looked up—and there before me was a man with a measuring line in his hand! I asked, “Where are you going?” He answered me, “To measure Jerusalem, to find out how wide and how long it is.” Then the angel who was speaking to me left, and another angel came to meet him and said to him: “Run, tell that young man, ‘Jerusalem will be a city without walls because of the great number of men and livestock in it. And I myself will be a wall of fire around it,’ declares the Lord, ‘and I will be its glory within.’" (Zechariah 2:1-5)
Jerusalem was being measured, not because Jehovah didn't know it's size, but as a symbol for Zechariah's benefit, to demonstrate that Jehovah would protect and bless it. It was even to be "without walls"!
Yet, how different was the situation in 70AD! Jerusalem had three walls, and was being depopulated by a "great tribulation" within, and the Roman armies beseiging it from without.
With this context in mind, we can see why John alludes to Zechariah - the contrast is stark, and bleak. Jehovah's protection, or "wall of fire" as it were, was gone, and Jehovah's glory had fled. The Temple was even being used as a base for the robbing and murderous Zealots!
John, too, is not literally measuring the Temple - just as in Zechariah, where the angel measures Jerusalem, John's measuring the Temple is being used as a symbol, a representation.
There were two main portions to the Temple - the temple sanctuary (Greek, naos), and the courtyard outside the sanctuary. The "naos" was also called the "divine habitation", and comprised the sacred inner rooms of the Temple structure.
John is told to measure only these, plus the worshippers there. Just as when the angel measured Jerusalem in Zechariah, these ones would be given divine protection and blessing.
If we recall, John earlier stated that the "great multitude" were described as serving God "day and night in his temple". So here in Revelation 11, the symbology of the Temple and its inner and outer sanctuary was being used to demonstrate the contrast between the true holy place, now embodied in the Christians who were to receive divine protection and blessing during this troubled period, and the physical holy place which had already been desecrated by the Jewish robbers, and was about to be destroyed by Titus.
The outer court is "given to the Gentiles". Here we are given yet another indication that John is talking about the Jewish war, in contrast with the fanciful speculations of many demoninations of Christianity.
Jesus Christ himself, in reference to Jerusalem at this period, said:
"When you see Jerusalem being surrounded by armies, you will know that its desolation is near. Then let those who are in Judea flee to the mountains, let those in the city get out, and let those in the country not enter the city. For this is the time of punishment in fulfillment of all that has been written. How dreadful it will be in those days for pregnant women and nursing mothers! There will be great distress in the land and wrath against this people. They will fall by the sword and will be taken as prisoners to all the nations. Jerusalem will be trampled on by the Gentiles until the times of the Gentiles are fulfilled." (Luke 21:20-24)
Here, at Revelation chapter 11, and the approaching climax of the seven trumpets, we see the fulfillment of Jesus' words above. The outer courtyard is, as it were, not measured, but is "given to the Gentiles".
Once again, Josephus records for posterity the fulfillment of these prophecies.
After the appeal by Josephus for the Jews to surrender, and some of the Jews being let out of the city, Titus erects a wall around Jerusalem, to prevent the ones who refuse to surrender from leaving. Upwards of five hundred Jews are crucified daily outside the walls, Titus doing this in the hopes of having the Jews capitulate out of fear.
Some of the Jews who then try and desert - but who missed out on Titus' earlier offer - are ripped open by Arabian and Syrian members of Titus' army, in search for gold. (Titus himself was not aware this was going on, and when he found out, he forbade it and disciplined those ones who were doing it.)
Josephus himself reports on something quite remarkable, which in my opinion is directly connected with Revelation. But first, we need understand the prophecies of the prophets:
John's account says, "They will trample on the holy city for 42 months".
This is first and foremost, the fulfillment of Jesus' words, that "Jerusalem will be trampled on by the Gentiles".
However, both Jesus and John are alluding to an even more ancient prophecy, namely, the prophecies of Daniel.
Daniel makes several references to the desolation of Jerusalem. The most plain one is that of the 70 weeks and the Messiah, in Daniel 9. Daniel says:
"“Know and understand this: From the issuing of the decree to restore and rebuild Jerusalem until the Anointed One, the ruler, comes, there will be seven ‘sevens,’ and sixty-two ‘sevens.’ It will be rebuilt with streets and a trench, but in times of trouble. After the sixty-two ‘sevens,’ the Anointed One will be cut off and will have nothing. The people of the ruler who will come will destroy the city and the sanctuary. The end will come like a flood: War will continue until the end, and desolations have been decreed. He will confirm a covenant with many for one ‘seven.’ In the middle of the ‘seven’ he will put an end to sacrifice and offering. And on a wing of the temple he will set up an abomination that causes desolation, until the end that is decreed is poured out on him." (Daniel 9:25-27)
After the 62 'sevens', the Anointed One (Messiah) was to be "cut off". This was when Jesus was put to death.
After that, "the people of the ruler who will come will destroy the city and the sanctuary." This is a reference to the Romans, who eventually destroy Jerusalem and the Temple.
However, Daniel says something very intriguing about this last 'seven'. He says, "He will confirm a covenant with many for one ‘seven.’"
I believe this statement has been grossly misinterpreted by many evangelical Christians, who foretell some Antichrist figure making a covenant with the Jews in a future rebuilt Temple.
I believe this is a "gross" misinterpretation, because there is a much simpler explanation, one that, according to Josephus, appears to have had its fulfillment - as testified to by both Jesus and John.
There are only two characters mentioned in this prophecy - the Anointed One, or Messiah... and the "ruler who will come", who turned out to be the Romans.
There is absolutely no mention of an Antichrist, a restored Jewish temple, or this antichrist making any covenant with the Jews!
However, the prophecy is principally concerned with the Messiah, or Anointed One. I believe it is him who confirms the covenant with "the many".
How so? Revelation chapter 7 describes it! 144,000 from "all the tribes of Israel", and a "great multitude"... are now in a covenant with him... a new covenant, as it were.
So then, Daniel says: "He will confirm a covenant with many for one ‘seven.’ In the middle of the ‘seven’ he will put an end to sacrifice and offering."
This is where the words of Josephus become even more remarkable. Here's what Josephus reports as to the situation just before the destruction of the Temple:
"And now Titus gave orders to his soldiers that were with him to dig up the foundations of the tower of Antonia, and make him a ready passage for his army to come up [into Jerusalem]; while he himself had Josephus brought to him (for he had been informed that on that very day, which was the seventeenth day of Panemus [Tamuz], the sacrifice called "the Daily Sacrifice" had failed, and had not been offered to God for want of men to offer it, and that the people were greviously troubled at it) and commanded him to say the same things to John that he had said before, that if he had any malicious inclination for fighting, he might come out with as many of his men as he pleased, in order to fight, without the danger of destroying either his city or temple; but that he desired he would not defile the temple, nor thereby offend against God.
That he might, if he pleased, offer the sacrifices which were now discontinued, by any of the Jews whom he should pitch upon. Upon this, Josephus stood in such a place where he might be heard, not by John only, but by many more, and then declared to them what Caesar had given him in charge, and this in the Hebrew language." (Wars Of The Jews, Book 6, Chapter 2)
So here, upon the Romans entering Jerusalem, Josephus reports that "the Daily Sacrifice" had "failed", or stopped.
The footnote to Josephus reads:
"This was a very remarkable day indeed, the seventeenth of Panemus [Tamuz], A.D. 70, when, according to Daniel's prediction, 606 years before, the Romans "in half a week caused the sacrifice and oblation to cease". Dan. 9:27, for from the month of February, A.D. 66, about which time Vespasian entered on this war, to this very time, was just three years and a half."
In other words, Josephus was unwittingly reporting upon the fulfillment of the "half of the week"!
Thus, we now have multiple testimonies confirming that the reference is indeed to Jerusalem.
Jesus foretold that "Jerusalem will be trampled on by the Gentiles". Daniel foretold that the Romans would destroy the city and temple, after the Messiah was "cut off". John himself alludes to Zechariah, which is a reference to Jerusalem being measured. And finally, he says, with regard to the Gentiles:
"They will trample on the holy city for 42 months."
That they do so for 42 months is further confirmation that we have reached the "half of the week" - for 42 months is approximately three and a half years!
Since the robbers refuse Josephus' offer to move from the Temple, events are now set in motion for the Temple to be "given to the Gentiles".
When you read Josephus, it is quite evident that Titus did not want to destroy the Temple, but God did - and so events of the war transpire in such a way that fire spreads throughout the Temple, and despite Titus' efforts to put it out, he fails, and the Temple is burned down - to the utter dismay of the remaining Jews in the city. This is the ultimate symbol of God's wrath upon them. It is the same symbol that John uses in Revelation 11.
Just as Nebuchadnezzar represented God's anger upon the Jews, in the first exile, now Titus was the vehicle for God's coming against them a second time.
The "holy city" was indeed being "trampled".
10-06-2007 12:26 PM
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Post: #82RE: Revelation, chapter by chapter
11:3 And I will give power to my two witnesses, and they will prophesy for 1,260 days, clothed in sackcloth.” 4 These are the two olive trees and the two lampstands that stand before the Lord of the earth.
Once again, the rich Jewish imagery continues, in this portion John is particularly drawing from the book of Zechariah.
The remant of Jews that had come back to their homeland from Babylon were understandably cautious - they were small in number, with no real physical security other than their own weapons.
This is why Jehovah sends them the prophets Zechariah and Haggai, to strengthen the hands of the people, and their leaders.
In Zechariah chapter 3, Jehovah first strengthens the high priest, Joshua. After rebuking Satan, God removes Joshua's filthy clothes, and promises to put rich garments on him, and gives him a clean turban and clothes him, saying:
"'Listen, O high priest Joshua and your associates seated before you, who are men symbolic of things to come: I am going to bring my servant, the Branch. See, the stone I have set in front of Joshua! There are seven eyes on that one stone, and I will engrave an inscription on it,’ says the Lord Almighty, ‘and I will remove the sin of this land in a single day.” ‘In that day each of you will invite his neighbor to sit under his vine and fig tree,’ declares the Lord Almighty.”" (Zechariah 3:8-10)
So Joshua and his associates were "symbolic of things to come". Jehovah promised that he would bring in his servant, Branch, and he would "remove the sin of this land in a single day".
We should note that the stone that was sent in front of Joshua had "seven eyes on that one stone". Later on, God explains the meaning of the eyes: "These seven are the eyes of the Lord, which range throughout the earth." (4:10)
So we can see that, when John recorded that the Lamb had "seven horns and seven eyes", which meant "the seven spirits of God that have been sent forth into the whole earth" (Rev 5:6), he was actually alluding to Zechariah!
That's because the Lamb, Jesus Christ, the one with "seven eyes", is also the Branch spoken of by Zechariah, God's means of removing the sin of the land of Israel "in a single day".
Zechariah also sees "a solid gold lampstand with a bowl at the top and seven lights on it, with seven channels to the lights. Also there are two olive trees by it, one on the right of the bowl and the other on its left.”" (4:2,3)
Although they are interpreted to Zechariah, we see their symbolic use in Revelation. For Christ, in Revelation, walks in the midst of seven lampstands.
Zechariah asks for the meaning of his vision. The angel answers:
"“This is the word of the Lord to Zerubbabel: ‘Not by might nor by power, but by my Spirit,’ says the Lord Almighty. “What are you, O mighty mountain? Before Zerubbabel you will become level ground. Then he will bring out the capstone to shouts of ‘God bless it! God bless it!’ ”"
...
“The hands of Zerubbabel have laid the foundation of this temple; his hands will also complete it. Then you will know that the Lord Almighty has sent me to you. “Who despises the day of small things? Men will rejoice when they see the plumb line in the hand of Zerubbabel."
...
“These are the two who are anointed to serve the Lord of all the earth.” (Zechariah 4:14)
So in Zechariah's vision, the two olive trees represented Joshua and Zerubbabel, the two who had been anointed to serve the Lord.
Zerubbabel was to be the one to lay the foundations of the Temple, and Joshua was to be its high priest.
John, in Revelation, says of the two witnesses: "These are the two olive trees and the two lampstands that stand before the Lord of the earth."
Clearly then, he is alluding to Zechariah. In Zechariah, Joshua was the high priest, and Zerubbabel was the governor.
In Revelation, a new kingdom was being formed. There was no individual Joshua or Zerubbabel, for that nation itself was to be "a kingdom and priests to serve our God". (Rev 5:10). These are ones who had been brought with the Lamb's blood.
Thus, when placed in the context of Jerusalem's being "trampled", John's use of the symbology of Zechariah is not surprising - because while the nation of Israel was coming to its end, the Christian nation of kings and priests was still in its infancy, or "birth", as it were.
So, then, who are these "two witnesses"? John tells us they are both "the two olive trees" and "the two lampstands".
The Lord Jesus Christ has already provided us with his interpretation of lampstand - "the seven lampstands are the seven churches" (1:20).
So two lampstands equal two churches, or congregations. Of course, when Jesus refers to "church", he does not mean what we would equate a church - ie. a big building perhaps with a spire.
The church was a congregation of worshippers. The people were the "church", or congregation.
These "stand before the Lord of the earth", just as Joshua and Zerubbabel did at the restoration of the Jews from exile.
So then, can we specifically identity these "two witnesses"? If we understand the context of Revelation up to now, then their identity becomes easy. They have already been described previously!...
"'Do not harm the land or the sea or the trees until we put a seal on the foreheads of the servants of our God.'Then I heard the number of those who were sealed: 144,000 from all the tribes of Israel." (7:3,4)
"After this I looked and there before me was a great multitude that no one could count, from every nation, tribe, people and language, standing before the throne and in front of the Lamb." (7:9)
Here are two groups that fulfill the conditions of the "two witnesses" in every way. Firstly, there are two groups, that comprise two great congregations ("lampstands") - of Jews, and Gentiles.
They wear "sackcloth", the typical garb of mourning prophets - very appropriate, given the woes they would hear about concerning Jerusalem.
They comprise a kingdom and priests, just as the two olive trees were Joshua the high priest, and Zerubbabel the governor, and founder of the second Temple.
And they "stand before the Lord of the earth".
They "prophesy for 1,260 days". As I have previously shown, the breach into Jerusalem by Titus was the time the Daily Sacrifice was stopped (as reported by Josephus), which providentially marked the "half of the week" (or 7 years) of Daniel.
Jesus himself had foretold the things that were now coming upon Jerusalem, and now these Christian prophecies were playing out in front of the eyes of the world - Christ was being vindicated as a true prophet, and the Messiah of Daniel.
It is no wonder, then, that these "two witnesses" are given "power" - their faith in Christ is being vindicated!
Their mission would, once again, be to share the "good news" of salvation to the world, but now with the added proof of their testimony, with the events that were unfolding in Jerusalem.
11:5 If anyone tries to harm them, fire comes from their mouths and devours their enemies. This is how anyone who wants to harm them must die. 6 These men have power to shut up the sky so that it will not rain during the time they are prophesying; and they have power to turn the waters into blood and to strike the earth with every kind of plague as often as they want.
The rich symbology continues - unless we wish to take these literally, in which case we need to be on the lookout for a couple of fire-breathing prophets.
However, it makes more sense to understand the symbology from which John is drawing upon. God said to Jeremiah: "Because the people have spoken these words, I will make my words in your mouth a fire and these people the wood it consumes." (Jer 5:14)
Thus, God's words would be a "fire" in these two prophets mouth, which would devour their enemies.
These prophets "have power to shut up the sky so that it will not rain during the time they are prophesying." This is an allusion to the ministry of Elijah, who was a prophet during the reign of Ahab.
Ahab took Jezebel as a wife, the daughter of the king of the Sidonians, and began worshipping Baal. "Ahab came to do more to offend Jehovah the God of Israel than all the kings of Israel that happened to be prior to him." (1 Kings 16:33)
So Elijah declares to Ahab: "As the Lord, the God of Israel, lives, whom I serve, there will be neither dew nor rain in the next few years except at my word." (1 Kings 17:1)
The sky is shut up for a total of 3 and a half years. During this troubled time, a famine grows severe in the land, and Jezebel attempts to have all of Jehovah's prophets killed, but Elijah preserves them alive by hiding them in caves.
So there is a very natural parallel between this time of trouble in Elijah's day, and the trouble the Jews were in, upon the destruction of the Temple. Both of which last 3.5 years, and both are due to their own wicked rulers - in the first instance, Ahab; and in the second, by the robbers who took control and brought utter desolation to their city.
The two prophets also "have power to turn the waters into blood and to strike the earth with every kind of plague as often as they want."
This is an allusion to the power of Moses. The first plague that Moses was authorized by God to bring upon Egypt was turning their water into blood. (Exodus 7)
In both situations, the situation of Israel was dire. In Moses' time, Israel was enslaved to Egypt. In the second, Israel was suffering under the wicked rule of Ahab and Jezebel.
Now, in the time of the "two prophets", Israel was in the direst of circumstances - it had been devastated by the Zealots, the Idumeans, and finally by the Romans.
We could ask, however: Why are Moses and Elijah being alluded to? At the transfiguration, these are the very same characters that were seen with Jesus!
"As he was praying, the appearance of his face changed, and his clothes became as bright as a flash of lightning. Two men, Moses and Elijah, appeared in glorious splendor, talking with Jesus. They spoke about his departure, which he was about to bring to fulfillment at Jerusalem. Peter and his companions were very sleepy, but when they became fully awake, they saw his glory and the two men standing with him." (Luke 9:28-32)
And now, here in Revelation, we saw a mighty angel with a face shining like the sun, give John an opened scroll... and then we see "two witnesses", who appear to have the power of Moses and Elijah!
In Revelation, we are seeing something like the transfiguration, in symbolic terms!
Furthermore, the power of Moses and Elijah may represent the authority of the Law (as embodied in Moses) and the Prophets (as embodied in Elijah), both of which testified to Christ - and to the curses that would come upon the Jews if they became unfaithful to God.
So while Elijah literally brought fire from heaven, and stopped up the sky, and while Moses struck Egypt with literal plagues, it appears the power of the two witnesses is symbolic - powerful demonstrations of the authority of Moses and Elijah, as the Law and Prophets.
10-06-2007 06:52 PM
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Post: #85RE: Revelation, chapter by chapter
11:7 Now when they have finished their testimony, the beast that comes up from the Abyss will attack them, and overpower and kill them. 8 Their bodies will lie in the street of the great city, which is figuratively called Sodom and Egypt, where also their Lord was crucified. 9 For three and a half days men from every people, tribe, language and nation will gaze on their bodies and refuse them burial. 10 The inhabitants of the earth will gloat over them and will celebrate by sending each other gifts, because these two prophets had tormented those who live on the earth.
These "two witnesses" are to testify, or witness, for 1,260 days... and then "the beast that comes up from the Abyss" kills them.
This is the second time that the abyss has been mentioned. In the first instance, it was a plague of weird locusts that were released from the abyss by the star that had fallen from heaven.
The identity of the beast is not identified here. However, later chapters go into more detail about a war that takes place in heaven, with Satan being kicked out, and a war between him and the ones who "obey God's commandments and hold to the testimony of Jesus". (Revelation 12)
So the identity of this beast will be revealed to us in time. In the meantime, the bodies of these 2 witnesses "will lie in the street of the great city, which is figuratively called Sodom and Egypt, where also their Lord was crucified".
One of the problems many Christians create for themselves, in my opinion, is not recognizing this as a symbolic drama - rather than a literal record of events that are to take place to the letter. As we will see, the events that occur make it fairly plain that symbology is being used quite liberally.
Firstly, these two witnesses follow the patten of Jesus Christ's ministry, which was three and a half years. Jesus was then killed by the Roman authorities, but resurrected on the third day, and went to heaven in a cloud.
There is a difference, however. The bodies of these two witnesses "lie in the street". The people "refuse them burial". They are basically held in contempt by Gentiles, "every people, tribe, language and nation".
They are put to death in "the great city, which is figuratively called Sodom and Egypt".
There are many great cities in the Bible. Ninevah was considered a great city to God. Babylon was a great city. Jerusalem was a great city.
However, this particular great city is figuratively called Sodom and Egypt.
When Israel rebelled the first time, Isaiah compared it to Sodom and Gomorrah:
"Unless the Lord Almighty
had left us some survivors,
we would have become like Sodom,
we would have been like Gomorrah.
Hear the word of the Lord,
you rulers of Sodom;
listen to the law of our God,
you people of Gomorrah!" (Isaiah 1:9,10)
The original Sodom was thoroughly destroyed by God for its badness, and so became a fitting symbol for a bad and deserted city.
Thus, the city was figuratively a Sodom. Egypt, on the other hand, was the place from which the Israelites were taken, but many times their heart was inclined to go back to Egypt.
In fact, as part of the curses if they became disobedient, Moses warned: "And Jehovah will certainly bring you back to Egypt by ships by the way about which I have said to you, 'You will never see it again,' and you will have to sell yourselves there to your enemies as slave men and maidservants, but there will be no buyer." (Deut 28:6
This was fulfilled very literally upon the Jews. The survivors of the destruction upon Jerusalem were sent as slaves into Egypt! According to Josephus, "... as for the rest of the multitude that were above seventeen years old, he put them into bonds, and sent them to the Egyptian mines." (Wars Of The Jews, Book 6, Chapter 9)
But from a figurative point of view, the city of Jerusalem had already returned back to Egypt - it had therefore become Sodom and Egypt, as it were.
The city was "where also their Lord was crucified". This helps us to identify both the "two witnesses" and the city itself. Their Lord is undoubtedly Jesus Christ, who was crucified just outside Jerusalem.
10-07-2007 01:54 PM
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Post: #86RE: Revelation, chapter by chapter
11:11 But after the three and a half days a breath of life from God entered them, and they stood on their feet, and terror struck those who saw them. 12 Then they heard a loud voice from heaven saying to them, “Come up here.” And they went up to heaven in a cloud, while their enemies looked on. 13 At that very hour there was a severe earthquake and a tenth of the city collapsed. Seven thousand people were killed in the earthquake, and the survivors were terrified and gave glory to the God of heaven. 14 The second woe has passed; the third woe is coming soon.
This is a very remarkable passage. The two witnesses are miraculously resurrected, to the terror of those who see it!
However, while there is obviously a great desire for this to be literally fulfilled, the context and content both imply that this is symbolic.
We have already discussed how these two witnesses are also lampstands, which mean churches (or congregations). So they are not really individuals.
Fire comes out of their mouths - but in a symbolic sense, like Jeremiah.
So we must acknowledge that even the apparent resurrection here is likely to be symbolic.
The clues are in the portion of the city that collapses, and the number killed: "a tenth of the city", and "seven thousand people".
We have already seen how John alludes to the time of trouble for Israel under the rule of Ahab and Jezebel, and the particular three and a half years during which the prophet Elijah stopped up the sky.
After the three and a half years, Elijah got discouraged, believing himself to be the only prophet left! He says to God:
"I have been very zealous for the Lord God Almighty. The Israelites have rejected your covenant, broken down your altars, and put your prophets to death with the sword. I am the only one left, and now they are trying to kill me too."
Jehovah comforts Elijah by demonstrating His mighty power to control the elements:
"Then a great and powerful wind tore the mountains apart and shattered the rocks before the Lord, but the Lord was not in the wind. After the wind there was an earthquake, but the Lord was not in the earthquake. After the earthquake came a fire, but the Lord was not in the fire. And after the fire came a gentle whisper." (1 Kings 19:11,12)
Jehovah then commissions Elijah to anoint various kings, and his own successor, and He reminds Elijah that he is not alone:
"Go back the way you came, and go to the Desert of Damascus. When you get there, anoint Hazael king over Aram [Syria]. Also, anoint Jehu son of Nimshi king over Israel, and anoint Elisha son of Shaphat from Abel Meholah to succeed you as prophet. Jehu will put to death any who escape the sword of Hazael, and Elisha will put to death any who escape the sword of Jehu. Yet I reserve seven thousand in Israel—all whose knees have not bowed down to Baal and all whose mouths have not kissed him." (1 Kings 19:15-1
So then, understanding the context of the passage in Revelation 11 helps us to understand the symbology.
The city of Jerusalem was being trampled! From a Gentile point of view, it looked as if the Gentiles had scored a victory over God himself!
However, John's allusion serves to provide two powerful points - first, that God is in control. Second, there is another group like the 7,000 who were reserved - namely, "all whose knees have not bowed down to Baal and all whose mouths have not kissed him" - the Christians!
As we shall see in the coming chapters, this will become an increasingly important element of Christian life under the Romans - not bowing down to false idols.
So then, that "seven thousand people were killed in the earthquake" should not be taken as a literal body count - it is "seven thousand" for a symbolic reason. These are all the people who have not bowed down to Baal, as it were.
Furthermore, "a tenth of the city collapsed". The tenth part of something was called a tithe:
"A tithe [tenth part] of everything from the land, whether grain from the soil or fruit from the trees, belongs to the Lord; it is holy to the Lord." (Leviticus 27:30)
So these verses are rich with Jewish symbology. On the other hand, that these two witnesses are resurrected after 3 and a half days, and are then called to heaven in a cloud, is very Christian in nature, and follows a similar pattern to the resurrection of Jesus Christ.
If, then, this is symbolic, what is the message that John is conveying here?
The Jewish Temple is destroyed by the Roman armies, and it appears to be a victory of the Gentiles over God. However, the body of Jewish Christians and Gentile Christians act as "two witnesses" to the fact that this is actually the will of God taking place. The Gentiles hate their message, at the end of the 1,260 days (and the second half of Daniel's foretold "week") they gain some kind of victory over these Christians as well, at the time when the Jewish war is completed at Masada. It is as if they have defeated God's people.
However, the gloating is short lived, for God raises up the Christians, as it were, as the holy tithe (the tenth of the city), and the ones who do not bow to Baal, as it were.
I appreciate this interpretation might be unsatisfactory to some - especially since a resurrection appears to be taking place here! Some have therefore attempted to equate this with the first resurrection.
However, I would raise several objections to this.
First, the "first resurrection" occurs after Satan is abyssed. (Rev 20:4) However, the apparent resurrection of Rev chapter 11 occurs before the "second woe" is ended, and the "third woe" begins. So it is unlikely to be the first resurrection.
Second, the rich symbology of this passage, in my opinion, seems to argue against this resurrection here being taken literally. That 7,000 are killed, and a tenth of the city falls, implies a specific symbology that is extending the Elijah theme, and giving us the characteristics of these "two witnesses", as both a holy part, and who do not bow to false idols.
10-07-2007 02:46 PM
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Post: #87RE: Revelation, chapter by chapter
11:15 The seventh angel sounded his trumpet, and there were loud voices in heaven, which said:
“The kingdom of the world has become the kingdom of our Lord and of his Christ, and he will reign for ever and ever.”
16 And the twenty‑four elders, who were seated on their thrones before God, fell on their faces and worshiped God, 17 saying:
“We give thanks to you, Lord God Almighty,
the One who is and who was,
because you have taken your great power
and have begun to reign.
18 The nations were angry; and your wrath has come.
The time has come for judging the dead,
and for rewarding your servants the prophets
and your saints and those who reverence your name,
both small and great–
and for destroying those who destroy the earth.”
19 Then God's temple in heaven was opened, and within his temple was seen the ark of his covenant. And there came flashes of lightning, rumblings, peals of thunder, an earthquake and a great hailstorm.
The second woe is finally over, having covered the four angels being untied at Euphrates, the strong angel standing on land and sea giving John an opened scroll, and the trampling of the holy city for 42 months.
The ending of the 42 months is the end of Daniel's "one week". (Daniel 9:26,27) Jerusalem's trampling is completed, and the Gentiles have gained their apparent victory over God!
However, John's vision puts this Gentile victory into a different perspective, namely the heavenly one:
"The kingdom of the world has become the kingdom of our Lord and of his Christ, and he will reign for ever and ever."
Understandably, many take this passage to mean the ushering in of God's new world on earth. However, this cannot be the final event, because there are 3 foretold woes, and we have only just finished the 2nd!
Neverthless, with the destruction of Jerusalem as the city and footstool of God, the kingdom of the world becomes God's kingdom.
This might sound strange, until we realize that the same thing happened in Daniel's day, with Babylonian king Nebuchadnezzar. We should recall that even this mighty king declared:
"How great are his signs,
how mighty his wonders!
His kingdom is an eternal kingdom;
his dominion endures from generation to generation." (Dan 4:3)
Nebuchadnezzar wrote this after being humbled by God for 7 years, becoming virtually a wild beast. During this time, God ensured that his kingdom was secure:
"The command to leave the stump of the tree with its roots means that your kingdom will be restored to you when you acknowledge that Heaven rules." (4:26)
Nebuchadnezzar's rulership was granted to him by God. This had already been told to him in his own dream, which Daniel interpreted for him:
"This was the dream, and now we will interpret it to the king. You, O king, are the king of kings. The God of heaven has given you dominion and power and might and glory; in your hands he has placed mankind and the beasts of the field and the birds of the air. Wherever they live, he has made you ruler over them all. You are that head of gold." (2:36-3
So back at the time when Jerusalem and the Temple were destroyed by Babylon, God placed the rulership of the world in the hands of king Nebuchadnezzar.
Now, at the second destruction of Jerusalem and its Temple, history was being repeated - this time, instead of Nebuchadnezzar, it was Vespasian.
There is reasonable evidence to indicate that God himself gave the rulership of Rome to Vespasian. This would not be entirely surprising, given that God gave rulership of mankind to Nebuchadnezzar for the purpose of fulfilling God's word.
Josephus himself certainly thought this was the case, for it was Josephus who reported to Vespasian on the dream he had from God, in which both Vespasian and his son Titus would be emperors - this was at a time when Nero ruled, and Vespasian was a general of the Roman army.
As I have already related, when Nero died, the Roman empire fell into disorder and chaos, such that Roman historians report that it was almost the end of Rome itself!
However, a sequence of remarkable events saw the same general who was prosecuting the war against Jerusalem and the Jews, become the emperor of Rome... and just as suddenly, the fortunes of Rome and the empire were reversed.
So in this way, God was demonstrating, at least to those who were paying attention (such as Josephus), that He was still in control.
The destruction of Jerusalem was merely the opening of a new chapter.
However, if the kingdom of the world became God's during this time, how come we didn't see an end to mankind's troubles? How come the Romans continued to reign?
The answer is: just like the sixth trumpet, which spanned a period of time, the seventh trumpet blast does not immediately bring perfection onto the earth.
In fact, it is the third woe! "The nations were angry". This once again reflects the 2nd Psalm:
"The One enthroned in heaven laughs;
the Lord scoffs at them.
Then he rebukes them in his anger
and terrifies them in his wrath, saying,
“I have installed my King
on Zion, my holy hill." (Psalm 2:4-6)
So the events on earth, such as the tribulation upon the Jews, and the chaos in Rome, demonstrated God's wrath. Despite their mocking, God had installed His king on Zion!
So it is no wonder that, at the blowing of the "seventh trumpet", the 24 elders sing praises to God.
They also say,
"The time has come for judging the dead,
and for rewarding your servants the prophets
and your saints and those who reverence your name,
both small and great–
and for destroying those who destroy the earth."
Does this mean these things came about in 70 or 73AD? I would say, No... for two reasons.
First, the seventh trumpet is the beginning of the third woe. Just as Revelation went into detail about the second woe, it will go into detail about the third.
Second, we only have to look back in history from the 1st century to see that those who "destroy the earth" have not been destroyed. We see a long history of emperors, Popes, kings and dictators who have contributed to the damage, from Nero right through to Hitler, Stalin and so on.
So the procalamation at the seventh trumpet, in my opinion, represents God's victory over Jerusalem, and the announcement (which was really a reminder) that the kingdom of the world was His, and the Lamb's.
Given that the Temple in Jerusalem had now been destroyed, a demonstration of God's sovereignty is now given to John, for "God's temple in heaven was opened, and within his temple was seen the ark of his covenant".
Yes, the heavenly Temple was not only standing, but in it was the "ark of his covenant"! This had been missing from the earthly Temple since the invasion of Nebuchadnezzar, where Jewish tradition has it that Jeremiah hid it underground - and indeed, there is no record of the Babylonians capturing it.
That John is allowed to see into this heavenly Temple at all is remarkable in itself! In the earthly Temple, only the high priest was allowed to enter into the Most Holy, the place where the ark was kept, once a year.
This beautiful symbology brings the events upon Jerusalem into full circle.
From a human perspective, Jerusalem and the Temple had been conquered, and the Temple destroyed. From a heavenly perspective (which was also John's perspective), God had begun to reign, and the heavenly Temple and the "ark of his covenant" were in their proper places - the ultimate assurance that God was in full control of events.
The seven trumpets commenced back in chapter 8 with "peals of thunder, rumblings, flashes of lightning and an earthquake" (8:5), which seemed to correspond with the night of the Idumeans being granted access to Jerusalem by the zealots, on the night of the "continual lightenings, terrible thunderings, and amazing concussions and bellowings of the earth, that was in an earthquake", which Josephus believed was a portent of the destruction of that city, and the beginning of its destruction.
Now, at the climax of the seven trumpets, "there came flashes of lightning, rumblings, peals of thunder, an earthquake and a great hailstorm".
So we have come full circle - the beginning and the end of the downfall of Jerusalem.
This vision began when John saw the Lamb take the sealed scroll and opened its seven seals. The seven trumpets were part of these, since they occur on the opening of the seventh seal.
Collectively, we might call this vision the "Vision Of The Seven Seals And Trumpets".
Now, John is about to see another sign, one that would add yet another perspective to the story...
10-08-2007 10:31 AM
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Post: #88RE: Revelation, chapter by chapter
REVELATION CHAPTER 12
12:1 A great and wondrous sign appeared in heaven: a woman clothed with the sun, with the moon under her feet and a crown of twelve stars on her head. 2 She was pregnant and cried out in pain as she was about to give birth. 3 Then another sign appeared in heaven: an enormous red dragon with seven heads and ten horns and seven crowns on his heads. 4 His tail swept a third of the stars out of the sky and flung them to the earth. The dragon stood in front of the woman who was about to give birth, so that he might devour her child the moment it was born.
John now sees a "great and wondrous sign in heaven". At this point, we could ask - given that John is already in heaven, why show him a sign? Why not actually show him real events?
The purpose of the sign was to signify events to him, so that he could comprehend them.
In this sign, two characters are introduced to John. The first is "a woman clothed with the sun, with the moon under her feet and a crown of twelve stars on her head."
Who is this woman? That she has "a crown of twelve stars on her head" is the main clue to identifying her.
One of the sons of Israel, Joseph, had a dream similar to this:
"Listen,” he said, “I had another dream, and this time the sun and moon and eleven stars were bowing down to me.” When he told his father as well as his brothers, his father rebuked him and said, “What is this dream you had? Will your mother and I and your brothers actually come and bow down to the ground before you?”" (Genesis 37:9.10)
Here the other 11 sons of Israel were "stars" who would bow down to Joseph, the 12th "star". Throughout the scriptures, all of the tribes of Israel are referred to as the "twelve tribes".
In Isaiah chapter 54, God talks about having a wife:
"For your Maker is your husband—
the Lord Almighty is his name—
the Holy One of Israel is your Redeemer;
he is called the God of all the earth."
The Lord will call you back
as if you were a wife deserted and distressed in spirit—
a wife who married young,
only to be rejected,” says your God.
“For a brief moment I abandoned you,
but with deep compassion I will bring you back." (54:5-7)
Israel was his wife, who was rejected "for a brief moment" when He handed her over to Nebuchadnezzar for her own unfaithfulness, but was brought back "with deep compassion.
Furthermore, God promises His wife glory, for Isaiah says:
"Arise, shine, for your light has come,
and the glory of the Lord rises upon you.
See, darkness covers the earth
and thick darkness is over the peoples,
but the Lord rises upon you
and his glory appears over you." (Isaiah 60:1,2)
The woman of Revelation is "pregnant and cried out in pain as she was about to give birth".
Of Zion, Jehovah foretells:
"“Before she goes into labor,
she gives birth;
before the pains come upon her,
she delivers a son.
Who has ever heard of such a thing?
Who has ever seen such things?
Can a country be born in a day
or a nation be brought forth in a moment?
Yet no sooner is Zion in labor
than she gives birth to her children.
Do I bring to the moment of birth
and not give delivery?” says the Lord.
“Do I close up the womb
when I bring to delivery?” says your God." (Isaiah 66:7-9)
Now, here in Revelation we see the symbolism of the woman crowned with 12 stars, God's wife... Zion... giving birth!
However, trouble awaits. John sees a second character: "An enormous red dragon with seven heads and ten horns and seven crowns on his heads."
Although the dragon is not immediately identified, John's readers would have identified it with the mysterious Leviathan of Job chapter 41, which was translated in the Greek Septuagint (LXX) as "a dragon". Of this Leviathan, Jehovah says:
"Nothing on earth is his equal— a creature without fear. He looks down on all that are haughty; he is king over all that are proud." (Job 41:33,34)
Whatever Leviathan was, it was a fearsome creature, for "firebrands stream from his mouth; sparks of fire shoot out. Smoke pours from his nostrils as from a boiling pot over a fire of reeds. His breath sets coals ablaze, and flames dart from his mouth." (41:19-21)
Of course, modern scholars mock at the idea of a fire-breathing creature that Jehovah himself called "king over all that are proud", and prefer to interpret Leviathan as a crocodile.
Regardless of how modern scholars choose to interpret Leviathan, it is from this creature that John draws a parallel. The most fearsome creature that has nothing on earth as its equal, "stood in front of the woman who was about to give birth"!
The woman's child is in imminent danger, for the dragon stands in front of her for one reason: "So that he might devour her child the moment it was born."
We should also note that the dragon's tail "swept a third of the stars out of the sky and flung them to the earth". This would have been familiar language to John's audience, who would have been familiar with Daniel's prophetic writings.
In speaking of a small horn that grows, he says:
"Out of one of them came another horn, which started small but grew in power to the south and to the east and toward the Beautiful Land. It grew until it reached the host of the heavens, and it threw some of the starry host down to the earth and trampled on them. It set itself up to be as great as the Prince of the host; it took away the daily sacrifice from him, and the place of his sanctuary was brought low." (Daniel 8:9-11)
So the symbology of Daniel is that the "host of the heavens" are the holy ones, upon which this small horn tramples.
We do not have to guess at the identity of the "dragon" for very long, because it will shortly be identified.
10-08-2007 11:42 AM
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Post: #89RE: Revelation, chapter by chapter
12:5 She gave birth to a son, a male child, who will rule all the nations with an iron scepter. And her child was snatched up to God and to his throne. 6 The woman fled into the desert to a place prepared for her by God, where she might be taken care of for 1,260 days.
The woman gives birth to a son. He is "a male child, who will rule all the nations with an iron scepter."
We already know who is going to rule the nations with an iron scepter. Psalm 2, the Psalm about the Son, says:
"I will proclaim the decree of the Lord:
He said to me, “You are my Son;
today I have become your Father.
Ask of me,
and I will make the nations your inheritance,
the ends of the earth your possession.
You will rule them with an iron scepter;
you will dash them to pieces like pottery.”" (Psalm 2:7-9)
Jesus Christ confirms this in his own words to the church in Thyatira:
"To him who overcomes and does my will to the end, I will give authority over the nations–
‘He will rule them with an iron scepter;
he will dash them to pieces like pottery’–
just as I have received authority from my Father." (Rev 2:26,27)
So the identity of the "male child" was not difficult for John's reader to deduce - it was Jesus Christ! The woman who gave birth to him was Israel.
That the "dragon" was standing before the woman, ready to devour her child, is historically demonstrated by the gospel writer Mathew. For Herod the king tried to have Jesus killed:
"When Herod realized that he had been outwitted by the Magi, he was furious, and he gave orders to kill all the boys in Bethlehem and its vicinity who were two years old and under, in accordance with the time he had learned from the Magi. Then what was said through the prophet Jeremiah was fulfilled:
“A voice is heard in Ramah,
weeping and great mourning,
Rachel weeping for her children
and refusing to be comforted,
because they are no more. (Mathew 2:16-1
33 years and a half years later, the "dragon" appeared to score a victory, when Satan entered Judas and had him betrayed to the Jewish authorities, who handed him over to the Romans to be executed. But God gave Christ the victory, by resurrecting him from the dead, and calling him to heaven.
So then, as if saved from the jaws of the "dragon", "her child was snatched up to God and to his throne".
Some 33 years later, another major event happened, which would directly involve the Christians living in Jerusalem - the Romans came to Jerusalem, and then mysteriously withdrew. This provided the Jewish Christians with the opportunity to flee.
And this is reflected in the sign given to John: "The woman fled into the desert to a place prepared for her by God, where she might be taken care of for 1,260 days."
To understand this, we need to understand Paul's words:
"For not all who are descended from Israel are Israel. Nor because they are his descendants are they all Abraham's children. On the contrary, 'It is through Isaac that your offspring will be reckoned.'" (Romans 9:6,7)
Paul spends several chapters of his letter to the Romans explaining that Israel was destined to fall, in order to bring salvation to Gentiles - but that God had not rejected his people in total, but that a remnant would be saved.
God's nation of Israel was never totally rejected, for there was a "holy seed", a "stump", a "tithe" that were preserved:
"If the part of the dough offered as firstfruits is holy, then the whole batch is holy; if the root is holy, so are the branches. If some of the branches have been broken off, and you, though a wild olive shoot, have been grafted in among the others and now share in the nourishing sap from the olive root, do not boast over those branches. If you do, consider this: You do not support the root, but the root supports you. You will say then, “Branches were broken off so that I could be grafted in.” Granted. But they were broken off because of unbelief, and you stand by faith. Do not be arrogant, but be afraid. For if God did not spare the natural branches, he will not spare you either." (Romans 11:16-21)
So then, Jewish branches were "broken off" so that Gentiles could be "grafted in", but the Jewish "root" was still holy.
This "root" or "remnant" was represented in Revelation as the 144,000, and it is this holy "tithe" that escaped Jerusalem's tribulation, by fleeing, in obedience to Jesus' command.
So this is how the woman gives birth to the son who is to rule, and then flees to the desert (or wilderness) for 1,260 days.
The Jewish Christians who fled, were "Israel"! It was they who were beloved of God, His wife.
If this is the case, someone may well ask: Why is John repeating events that have already been discussed in Revelation?
This vision is being given to John to initially set the scene. It was an overview, a "story so far" - the "woman" vs the "dragon".
The story is this: Israel gives birth to the Messiah, the Son who is to rule the nations. Satan attempts to wipe out this child at birth, but fails. Although he gets a temporary victory at Jesus' death, this is really a failure, because Jesus is caught away to heaven in victory. Soon after, the Romans come upon Jerusalem, and the "woman", now embodied in the holy seed of Israel who accepted Jesus as that Messiah, flee from Jerusalem, where they are given divine protection for 1,260 days.
Once again, we have that period of time which equates to approximately three and a half years - giving us the indication that we are talking about the same time period within Daniel's final "week".
It is no wonder she needs protection, for the dragon is furious!
10-08-2007 02:40 PM
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Post: #90RE: Revelation, chapter by chapter
12:7And there was war in heaven. Michael and his angels fought against the dragon, and the dragon and his angels fought back. 8 But he was not strong enough, and they lost their place in heaven. 9 The great dragon was hurled down–that ancient serpent called the devil, or Satan, who leads the whole world astray. He was hurled to the earth, and his angels with him.
At this point, there is "war in heaven"!
This provides a problem for those who would argue that Revelation has multiple fulfillments - I would ask, how many wars in heaven are there, anyway?
Revelation gives the answer: there is only one, and it is decisive.
Michael is a character that would be familiar to readers of Daniel. He is first introduced in Daniel chapter 10 as "Michael, one of the chief princes" who came to the aid of the one who was delivering the vision to Daniel. The one delivering the vision had himself come with difficulty, for "prince of the Persian kingdom resisted me twenty-one days".
Michael was a supporter of the one delivering the message to Daniel, for he says: "No one supports me against them except Michael, your prince."
In Daniel 12, Michael is again mentioned, as "Michael, the great prince who protects your people".
So Michael was the angelic prince of Daniel's people. Now, in this time of great distress, Michael was about to go to war!
Finally, too, the identity of the "dragon" is revealed to us, although it is unlikely that John's audience would not have known who it was - they already knew their adversary was the Devil, or Satan.
And indeed, this is who the dragon is: "That ancient serpent called the devil, or Satan, who leads the whole world astray".
So now John is in possession of all the facts. The "great tribulation" on the Jews - and to a certain extent, upon the world - comes about not just because of the unfaithfulness of the Jews, but because there is also a greater war being fought - one that takes place in heaven!
No, Satan was not in heaven for an additional 1,881 years after Christ's victory, as the WT would have you believe - neither is he still in heaven, as Futurists believe. Why would anyone leave their enemy right in their own war room? No, after attempting to destroy the Son, Satan himself had already commenced battle... a battle that was to culminate into all-out war, during the tumultous events of 66-73AD.
We can now understand why this vision is so necessary. Without this additional piece of information, the "great tribulation" would appear to be a collection of human misery - man's inhumanity to man. But John is being told that there is an extra aspect, invisible to human eyes, in the realm of the spirits - which goes a long way towards explaining many of the tragic events of that time.
This also helps us to understand better the allusions John made earlier to a "star that had fallen from heaven", the "pit of the abyss", the angels that had been "untied", the two myriads of myriads, etc. There was a war in heaven, and the earth would suffer because of it.
The dragon is described as "that ancient serpent". This is an allusion to the start of mankind's woes, when Eve listened to the voice of the serpent. Ever since that time, mankind was cast out and barred from the garden of Eden.
The dragon is said to lead "the whole world astray". There are very few direct references to Satan in the Hebrew scriptures, but he is always portrayed as a resister - which is what "Satan" means. He first appears in Job chapter 1, where in an assembly of the angels, he accuses Job of only being loyal to God because of the blessing and protection he received from God.
However, by the time of the Greek scriptures, Satan had become a major character. He tested Jesus in the wilderness, and he was said to enter Judas, to have Jesus betrayed.
Clearly then, it would be of no surprise to John's 1st century readers, to learn about the war in heaven - it was the inevitable culmination of Satan's resistance.
So Satan was "hurled to the earth, and his angels with him". As I said above, this is a decisive war. Satan does not get cast out once in the 1st, and again in the 20th or 21st century - what kind of a victory would that be?
No, Satan's casting out is once and for all. And John even gives us the timeframe! The context of the war is this: Israel giving birth to the "male child", who gets snatched out of Satan's jaws to heaven, and then that woman fleeing to the wilderness, to be protected for 1,260 days - the half of Daniel's "one week".
This "week" happened in the 1st century!... not, as some evangelicals would claim, at some future week during which an Antichrist figure will almost suddenly emerge, make a treaty with the Jews for 7 years in their shiny new Temple, and then break it after 3.5 years.
Exciting as that sounds, theirs is a blatant twisting of the books of Daniel and Revelation. The context of the "one week" in Daniel 9 is clearly the 1st century, with its reference to the Messiah, and the "leader" who destroys the temple and city. The context of the war in heaven in Revelation 12 is similar!
12:10 Then I heard a loud voice in heaven say:
“Now have come the salvation and the power and the kingdom of our God, and the authority of his Christ.
For the accuser of our brothers,
who accuses them before our God day and night,
has been hurled down.
11 They overcame him
by the blood of the Lamb
and by the word of their testimony;
they did not love their lives so much
as to shrink from death.
12 Therefore rejoice, you heavens
and you who dwell in them!
But woe to the earth and the sea,
because the devil has gone down to you!
He is filled with fury,
because he knows that his time is short."
When Satan and his angels are cast out of heaven, there is a great shout of praise in heaven. And no wonder, for "now have come the salvation and the power and the kingdom of our God, and the authority of his Christ".
Some have accused God of being slow. But this is actually the patience of God. Yet with regard to His adversary, He was not slow. One of the first acts of Christ's authority was to remove Satan from heaven.
Satan is also called the Devil, and this name means slanderer. The Devil slanders both God, and those who worship Him. So there is another reason for the heavenly host to rejoice - "the accuser of our brothers, who accuses them before our God day and night, has been hurled down."
These "brothers" are given glowing praises, because they overcame or conquered Satan, by the blood of the Lamb and the word of their testimony.
So the drama that has been unfolding has not been for nothing, but Satan has already been conquered, as it were. These ones were even willing to undergo death for God and the Lamb, once for all time demonstrating Satan to be a liar.
So it is the time for the heavens to rejoice!
Unfortunately, this is not the case for "the earth and the sea". It means woe! How so? Because "the devil has gone down to you!... filled with fury."
He knows "his time is short". We must put this into its proper perspective. From a human point of view, we live 70 or 80 years on average - if we are lucky, some of us make it past 100.
Angels, however, do not have human weaknesses. They are not subject to old age and death. Satan was an angel, a spirit. Therefore, it makes no sense to see this "time is short" statement in human terms, for Satan was not human.
From an angelic, heavenly perspective, Satan's time was to be short. These are the same beings who existed before the world was founded and man was created. Since the Bible tells us that man was created around 6,000 years ago, we know these spirits are at least that old.
Thus, whatever length of time Satan has, whether it is measured in days, months, years or even thousands of years, it is short in comparison with their natural course of spirit life.
However, Satan doesn't waste any time, as we shall see...
10-10-2007 09:41 AM
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Post: #93RE: Revelation, chapter by chapter
12:13 When the dragon saw that he had been hurled to the earth, he pursued the woman who had given birth to the male child. 14 The woman was given the two wings of a great eagle, so that she might fly to the place prepared for her in the desert, where she would be taken care of for a time, times and half a time, out of the serpent's reach.
Satan is furious at being cast out of heaven, and one of his first acts after being hurled onto the earth is to pursue the woman who had given birth to the male child!
The imagery is consistent. The true "woman", God's wife, the holy seed, has fled from Jerusalem, by heeding the warnings of Jesus. So Satan pursues this woman... for one pursues someone who is fleeing!
However, they are given divine protection in the form of "the two wings of a great eagle".
This language is reminiscent of the original salvation Jehovah provided the Israelites in the wilderness after fleeing from Egypt, as described poetically by Moses:
"In a desert land he found him,
in a barren and howling waste.
He shielded him and cared for him;
he guarded him as the apple of his eye,
like an eagle that stirs up its nest
and hovers over its young,
that spreads its wings to catch them
and carries them on its pinions.
The Lord alone led him;
no foreign god was with him.
He made him ride on the heights of the land
and fed him with the fruit of the fields.
He nourished him with honey from the rock,
and with oil from the flinty crag." (Deuteronomy 32:10-13)
So just as the Israelites were protected and fed in the desert, now the holy "remnant" of fleshly Israel that had fled were to be taken care of "for a time, times and half a time, out of the serpent's reach".
This was especially important for Jewish Christians to know, since their fellow unbelieving Jews were being slaughtered in their war with the Romans - a war that only came to an end in 73CE with the last Jewish stronghold, Masada, falling to the Romans.
However, even in the rest of the world, Jews were everywhere in danger. As Josephus had earlier recounted, all the Jews in Cesarea had been slaughtered on one day and hour. Jews in all of Syria were in mortal danger. And even after the Roman victory, many Jews in Antioch were killed, and the rest were forced to sacrifice to the gods - those who refused were put to death.
"And when the people of Antioch tried the experiment, some few complied; but those that would not do so were slain. As for Antiochus himself, he obtained soldiers from the Roman commander, and became a severe master over his own citizens, not permitting them to rest on the seventh day, but forcing them to do all that they usually did on other days; and to that degree of distress did he reduce them in this matter, that the rest of the seventh day was dissolved not only at Antioch, but the same thing which took thence its rise was done in other cities also, in like manner, for some small time." (Josephus, Wars Of The Jews, Book 7, Chapter 3)
It is quite evident, then, that divine protection had departed from the Jews as a whole. But from the "holy seed", the Jews who had the faith of Jesus, they were protected and nourished in the desert, as it were.
10-10-2007 10:06 AM
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Post: #94RE: Revelation, chapter by chapter
12:15 Then from his mouth the serpent spewed water like a river, to overtake the woman and sweep her away with the torrent. 16 But the earth helped the woman by opening its mouth and swallowing the river that the dragon had spewed out of his mouth. 17 Then the dragon was enraged at the woman and went off to make war against the rest of her offspring–those who obey God's commandments and hold to the testimony of Jesus.
Satan is unable to score a direct victory against the woman, so "from his mouth the serpent spewed water like a river". His next attempt is to drown her!
There is a subtle allusion to the 70th week of Daniel here. In foretelling the coming of the Romans upon Jerusalem, Daniel said:
"The people of the ruler who will come will destroy the city and the sanctuary. The end will come like a flood: War will continue until the end, and desolations have been decreed." (Daniel 9:26)
This is also what Jesus had foretold, when he compared the end of their city and that "wicked generation" to whom he preached, with the flood of Noah:
"I tell you the truth, this generation will certainly not pass away until all these things have happened. Heaven and earth will pass away, but my words will never pass away. “No one knows about that day or hour, not even the angels in heaven, nor the Son, but only the Father. As it was in the days of Noah, so it will be at the coming of the Son of Man. For in the days before the flood, people were eating and drinking, marrying and giving in marriage, up to the day Noah entered the ark; and they knew nothing about what would happen until the flood came and took them all away. That is how it will be at the coming of the Son of Man." (Mathew 24:34-39)
The Son of Man "came" against that city, and it was, as Daniel foretold, "like a flood"!
However, in John's vision, the earth comes to the woman's aid, "swallowing the river that the dragon had spewed out of his mouth".
We understand the symbolic nature of these passages. Just as there is no literal fire breathing "two witnesses" with power to shut up the sky and turn the water into blood, there is no literal flood, no literal dragon, no literal woman, and no earth literally opening up.
This is a drama, told in dramatic, symbolic language, to help John understand the nature of the war between the "woman" and her seed, and Satan and his seed.
The dragon fails once again! Naturally, "the dragon was enraged at the woman".
And now, at the end of chapter 12, we are given one of the most important clues as to the nature of the war: for the dragon "went off to make war against the rest of her offspring–those who obey God's commandments and hold to the testimony of Jesus."
It is critical to understand this point: What is about to come is a direct result of Satan making war with the rest of the woman's offspring, namely "those who obey God's commandments and hold to the testimony of Jesus", which we would call Christians!
Satan has tried to wipe out the woman directly, and failed. So he turns his attention to her seed, the Christians.
And so the scene has now been fully set for the emergence of two mighty and ugly wild beasts - the emergence of which have direct and dire consequences for Christians...
10-10-2007 10:25 AM
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Post: #95RE: Revelation, chapter by chapter
REVELATION CHAPTER 13
13:1 And the dragon stood on the shore of the sea. And I saw a beast coming out of the sea. He had ten horns and seven heads, with ten crowns on his horns, and on each head a blasphemous name. 2 The beast I saw resembled a leopard, but had feet like those of a bear and a mouth like that of a lion. The dragon gave the beast his power and his throne and great authority.
Upon being cast out of heaven, Satan has failed to destroy the "woman". So he goes off to make war with the rest of her seed, the Christians.
However, the faith of Christ had already spread throughout the entire Roman empire, as Paul earlier reported. So how was Satan to make war with a people spread throughout the entire empire?
It would naturally require the use of a power that could wield its authority over that empire.
So in vision, John now sees the means for Satan's carrying out his war with the seed: "A beast coming out of the sea".
Here, John is drawing upon the same symbolism used earlier by Daniel. Daniel had a vision of four beasts emerging from the sea. Let's look at Daniel's vision (found in chapter 7 of Daniel), because it has a direct bearing on John's vision:
"In my vision at night I looked, and there before me were the four winds of heaven churning up the great sea.
3 Four great beasts, each different from the others, came up out of the sea.
4 “The first was like a lion, and it had the wings of an eagle. I watched until its wings were torn off and it was lifted from the ground so that it stood on two feet like a man, and the heart of a man was given to it.
5 “And there before me was a second beast, which looked like a bear. It was raised up on one of its sides, and it had three ribs in its mouth between its teeth. It was told, ‘Get up and eat your fill of flesh!’
6 “After that, I looked, and there before me was another beast, one that looked like a leopard. And on its back it had four wings like those of a bird. This beast had four heads, and it was given authority to rule.
7 “After that, in my vision at night I looked, and there before me was a fourth beast—terrifying and frightening and very powerful. It had large iron teeth; it crushed and devoured its victims and trampled underfoot whatever was left. It was different from all the former beasts, and it had ten horns.
There are further details, but let's stop there for now. Daniel is given the interpretation of these beasts: "The four great beasts are four kingdoms that will rise from the earth." (7:17)
Although none of the kingdoms are named in this vision, it is consistent with other visions Daniel has, and with the dream of the image that was given to Nebuchadnezzar.
Most Bible commentators agree that Daniel's four wild beasts are as follows:
The "lion" beast is the empire of Babylon, which represented itself as a lion with wings. This is how this kingdom is portrayed to Daniel, although it's wings are plucked out and it becomes like a man. This likely symbolized its humiliation by being lowered after its defeat by the Medes and Persians.
The "bear" beast is the empire of the Medes and Persians. It was raised up on one of its sides, likely representing the dominance of the one part of this dual power over the other. It ate up territory, to the point where, in Esther's day, its king was king from "India to Ethiopia" (Esther 1:1).
The "leopard" beast represented the Greek empire. Alexander the Great, the Greek king, was swift like a leapord in conquering the previous empires, and was prominent to the point that another of Daniel's visions calls him the "first king". However, while still young, Alexander died, and his kingdom was split between four of his generals.
The fourth beast with "ten horns" is considered to be the Roman empire, a mighty empire that "crushed and devoured its victims and trampled underfoot whatever was left".
Daniel's vision was principally concerned with the rulership of the world, because "the sovereignty, power and greatness of the kingdoms under the whole heaven will be handed over to the saints, the people of the Most High. His kingdom will be an everlasting kingdom, and all rulers will worship and obey him." (7:27)
So while these beasts, or kingdoms, appeared to be mighty, they were also transitory. Their kingdom will eventually "be handed over to the saints".
In Daniel's time, the first beast fell, and the second beast took over the rulership of the world.
However, by John's day, rulership of the world had already passed from Babylon, Medo-Persia and Greece, and on to the Roman empire. At the time of John's writing, the ten-horned beast was ruling!
So it would not be entirely surprising to John's readers that the beast emerging from the sea has "ten horns and seven heads" - the symbology of ten horns was already familiar to them!
However, the "seven heads" was not a feature of Daniel's vision - at least, not an obvious one. However, by an intriguing "coincidence", if we assume that each of Daniel's beasts had one head each, apart from the "leopard" beast which has 4, that makes a total of... 7 heads!
So this appears to be more than just a passing allusion to Daniel. In fact, as if to reinforce the reference to Daniel, the beast John sees has elements of both a leopard, bear and lion... the exact same beasts that Daniel saw before the beast with the 10 horns!
Thus, John's beast "resembled a leopard". In Daniel's vision, the leopard beast represented the Greeks, who were swift and virtually undefeatable in conquest. However, it should also be noted that the Greek empire was also famous for its veneration of heroic men to gods.
John's beast had "feet like those of a bear". The "bear" kingdom, the Medo-Persian empire, was noted for its vast rulership and territory, which in Esther's day had grown to 127 jurisdictional districts.
It had "a mouth like that of a lion". So its mouth was like the Babylonian empire. As we read Daniel, we note the proudness of Nebuchadnezzar. In admiring his own kingdom, he stated: "Is not this the great Babylon I have built as the royal residence, by my mighty power and for the glory of my majesty?"
Yet the mighty king of Babylon was laid low by the God of Heaven, and became a wild beast for 7 years. The Babylonians are portrayed in scripture as proud, haughty.
So this is the picture we are given of John's wild beast - resembling the Greeks, with feet like the Medo-Persians, and with a mouth like that of Babylon.
"The dragon gave the beast his power and his throne and great authority." This beast derives its power and authority from Satan!
This is nothing surprising, because Satan was earlier portrayed as having "seven heads and ten horns". Thus, the beast that emerges is fashioned in the image of Satan himself!
On the ten horns, there are "ten crowns", and "on each head a blasphemous name".
What do these things mean, and who is this beast? We do not need to worry about its identity, which will be made abundantly plain by the angel, as more details are given.
The beast has 7 heads. In Daniel's vision, the third beast (the "leopard") had 4 heads, which turned out to be 4 of Alexander's generals.
So heads are fitting symbols for individual rulers, because just as a head governs the body, a ruler governs a kingdom.
John sees that "on each head" there was "a blasphemous name". These heads were blasphemous! Blasphemy is a particularly notable feature of this wild beast - and why not? The one who gives it power is furious with God and the holy ones!
So then, with the information we have been given so far, we deduce this:
John was writing in the time of the rule of Daniel's beast with "ten horns", the Roman empire. Satan has just been kicked out of heaven, and has failed to eliminate the woman during Daniel's "half of the week". So he now turns his attention to the seed, who are spread throughout the Roman empire.
For this, Satan will need to wield the biggest tool at his disposal, in order to prosecute his war with the Christians - namely, the power of the State!
And so, immediately after failing to destroy the woman, John sees a wild beast with 7 heads and 10 horns emerging, with features very similar to Daniel's four beasts.
At this point, John's readers could already take a reasonable guess at the identity of this beast - it seemed a very fine description of the Roman empire that was persecuting them like a vicious wild beast - like a beast that Satan himself had fashioned!
However, would more information be given, that would make its identity certain?
The answer is YES...
10-10-2007 11:33 AM
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Post: #96RE: Revelation, chapter by chapter
13:3 One of the heads of the beast seemed to have had a fatal wound, but the fatal wound had been healed. The whole world was astonished and followed the beast. 4 Men worshiped the dragon because he had given authority to the beast, and they also worshiped the beast and asked, “Who is like the beast? Who can make war against him?”
One of its heads appeared to be fatally wounded, but the fatal wound is healed.
It is unlikely that John's readers would have misunderstood, or wondered at this passage - rather, it was to help them identify the beast.
Remarkably, Nero, the first imperial persecutor of Christians who reigned between October 54AD and June 68, was himself described as "a beast" by pagan writer Apollinius of Tyana, a contemporary of Nero. In fact, many historians were of the opinion that Nero was cruel and base.
However, upon Nero's death, the Roman empire was plunged into turmoil, for this was the end of the Julio-Claudian line of emperors - the bloodline of the original Caesars had ended!
Furthermore, the Roman empire was plunged into a horrible civil war. Josephus reports concerning these events: "I have omitted to give an exact account of them, because they are well known by all, and they are described by a great number of Greek and Roman authors."
Thus, the Roman historian Tacitus, in describing those perilous times: "This was the condition of the Roman state when Serius Galba, chosen consul for the second time, and his colleague Titus Vinius entered upon the year that was to be for Galba his last and for the state almost the end."
After Nero, emperor after emperor rose to power and were murdered within a matter of months. The Roman state was in its death throes, and "for a longtime had been unsettled, and as it were, drifting, through the usurpation and violent death of three emperors", says Roman historian Suetonius.
The "stars" of Rome were darkening during the same troubled days in which the Jews were cooped up in their own city, suffering "great tribulation", and the Jews in other cities were being slughtered by their own countrymen, even the city of Rome was facing its own tribulation.
And little wonder, for during these dark years, as John shows us by revelation, there was also a war in heaven!
So then, after Nero, Galba's reign lasted just over 7 months, and was slain in the marketplace. Otho becomes emperor for just over 3 months, and then Vitellius.
Vitellius, however, is killed by a mob, and in a scene that seems almost to have been foreshadowed by John himself, Josephus reports on how Vitellius died:
"Then did Vitellius come out of the palace, in his cups, and satiated with an extravagant and luxurious meal, as in the last extremity, and being drawn along by the multitude, and abused with all sorts of torments, had his head cut off in the midst of Rome, having retained the government eight months and five days; and had he lived much longer, I cannot but think the empire would not have been sufficient for his lust." (Wars Of The Jews, Book 4, Chapter 11)
So not only was the government of the Roman empire in the midst of death pangs, the third emperor during this turbulent period "had his head cut off in the midst of Rome"!
However, it was not God's intention at this point for the Roman empire to fall apart. As I earlier showed, Josephus had been given a dream by God, in which both Vespasian and Titus would become emperors.
Josephus' life is providentially spared, when Vespasian is beseiging the city to which he had fled. Josephus is later brought to Vespasian and Titus, and he relates the dream.
At first, Vespasian does not believe him, but after hearing of the death of Nero, his soldiers declare him to be Caesar, and persuade him to go to Rome.
This he does, and the dire troubles of Rome are immediately reversed. As Josephus reports: "So upon this confirmation of Vespasian's entire government, which was now settled, and upon the unexpected deliverance of the public affairs of the Romans from ruin, Vespasian turned his thoughts to what remained unsubdued in Judea."
So during this turbulent era, the Roman empire suffered what appeared to be a death-stroke - which was miraculously healed!
So then, the identity of this wild beast becomes yet clearer. The 1st century Christian readers of John's revelation would have fully understood.
However, in typical pagan fashion, "The whole world was astonished and followed the beast."
Even Josephus reports the reversal of the Roman empire's fortunes as miraculous - and perhaps it was from a divine Source. Nevertheless, the people "followed the beast".
"Men worshiped the dragon because he had given authority to the beast". The beast was a reflection or image of the dragon, Satan himself. This, indeed, is how Satan works - through images.
God himself cannot be represented by an image, as if He is equivalent to anything on earth. He is the Creator of all things. Yet the people living under the "beast" were not worshippers of God, but of idols - images.
Thus, they "worshiped the dragon". However, they also "worshiped the beast". Caesar worship was prominent in the Roman empire. Caesar was the mediator between the gods and men. In fact, the title Pontifex Maximus, one of Caesar's titles (later inherited by the Popes) was "the high priest of the Ancient Roman College of Pontiffs".
The Roman empire emerged from its death throes, so that men asked: "Who is like the beast? Who can make war against him?"
Indeed, who could? Just as Michael, the prince of God's people, means "Who Is Like God?", it is very ironic that they ask, "Who is like the beast"? For only Satan was like the beast!
"Who can make war against him"? Not even the Jews, who claimed to have God as their Protector, could successfully make war with the beast, but instead had been trampled by it.
10-10-2007 01:45 PM
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Post: #97RE: Revelation, chapter by chapter
13:5 The beast was given a mouth to utter proud words and blasphemies and to exercise his authority for forty‑two months. 6 He opened his mouth to blaspheme God, and to slander his name and his dwelling place and those who live in heaven. 7 He was given power to make war against the saints and to conquer them. And he was given authority over every tribe, people, language and nation.
John gives us further details to help us confirm the beast's identity.
The beast is authorized to act, or to "exercise his authority" for 42 months. I don't believe this is a further or separate three and a half years from the previous "time, times and half a time", but is there to help us confirm the identity - for it was the Roman imperial power that trampled on God's Temple and Jerusalem, during the second half of Daniel's "one week", from 70CE (when the Temple was destroyed) to 73CE, when the Jewish fortress of Masada was taken.
The beast utters "proud words" and "blasphemies". This is the second time blasphemy has been mentioned by John, although it's always implicit in the fact that the world worships it.
The Roman emperors, the "heads" of the empire, were themselves deemed to be gods, and were worshipped as such. Thus, the line of emperors were a form of living blasphemy to the God of Heaven.
This beast is "given power to make war against the saints and to conquer them".
Who could argue against the fact that, that, under the rule of the beast with "ten horns", the Roman empire, it made war with the saints?
The persecution commenced under Nero in 64AD, shortly before the Jewish war of 66. Not surprisingly, there was a war in heaven around this time - and Satan, having being thrown down to the earth, commenced his war with the Christians.
After Nero's death, and the death spasms of the empire, and it's revival under Vespasian and his son Titus, the Christians enjoyed a time relatively free from persecution. However, it didn't last.
Domitian, who reigned from 81-96AD, started to imitate some of Nero's cruelty, as reported by Tertullian: "Domitian also, who possessed a share of Nero’s cruelty, attempted once to do the same thing that the latter did. But because he had, I suppose, some intelligence, he very soon ceased, and even recalled those whom he had banished." (Tertullian, Apol. chapter 5)
Since only Nero and Domitian were imperial persecutors of Christians during the 1st century, many assume that John wrote Revelation during Domitian's reign. However, it is quite plausible that John could have written it during Nero's reign.
Either way, the "beast" that persecuted them was the same - the pagan imperial Roman power.
During the early decades of Christianity in the Roman empire, it was perilous to be known as a Christian, who were mistakenly viewed as athiests, since they rejected the "gods".
The cruelties inflicted upon the Christians grew ever greater as time went on - a reflection of their Satanic origin.
For example, Eusebius, who wrote a history of the church of the first 4 centuries, quoted a letter written by Christians in Gaul [France] to their brothers in Asia (around 177AD), which opened with these words:
"The servants of Christ residing at Vienne and Lyons, in Gaul, to the brethren through out Asia and Phrygia, who hold the same faith and hope of redemption, peace and grace and glory from God the Father and Christ Jesus our Lord."
The letter then recounted some of the horrible things that were inflicted upon the Christians in that region, quoting from the book of Revelation:
"But not even thus was their madness and cruelty toward the saints satisfied. For, incited by the Wild Beast, wild and barbarous tribes were not easily appeased, and their violence found another peculiar opportunity in the dead bodies. For, through their lack of manly reason, the fact that they had been conquered did not put them to shame, but rather the more enkindled their wrath as that of a wild beast, and aroused alike the hatred of governor and people to treat us unjustly; that the Scripture might be fulfilled: ‘He that is lawless, let him be lawless still, and he that is righteous, let him be righteous still.’"
Many Christians died in horrible ways, yet they still displayed their genuine Christian love even during those trials:
"For, through the genuineness of their love, their greatest contest with him was that the Beast, being choked, might cast out alive those whom he supposed he had swallowed. For they did not boast over the fallen, but helped them in their need with those things in which they themselves abounded, having the compassion of a mother, and shedding many tears on their account before the Father."
Or under the reign of Severus (about 202): "When Severus began to persecute the churches, glorious testimonies were given everywhere by the athletes of religion. This was especially the case in Alexandria, to which city, as to a most prominent theater, athletes of God were brought from Egypt and all Thebais according to their merit, and won crowns from God through their great patience under many tortures and every mode of death. Among these was Leonides, who was called the father of Origen, and who was beheaded while his son was still young." (Book VI, Chapter I)
Or under Decius, about 250 - an edict was issued to compel Christians to deny their faith and return to the religion of the state. Decius actively attempted to wipe Christians out of existence.
And what is generally considered to be the harshest persecution of Christians came under Diocletian (303AD), "that royal edicts were published everywhere, commanding that the churches be leveled to the ground and the Scriptures be destroyed by fire, and ordering that those who held places of honor be degraded, and that the household servants, if they persisted in the profession of Christianity, be deprived of freedom. Such was the first edict against us. But not long after, other decrees were issued, commanding that all the rulers of the churches in every place be first thrown into prison, and afterwards by every artifice be compelled to sacrifice." (Book VIII, Chapter II)
"What was to be seen after this exceeds all description. A vast multitude were imprisoned in every place; and the prisons everywhere, which had long before been prepared for murderers and robbers of graves, were filled with bishops, presbyters and deacons, readers and exorcists, so that room was no longer left in them for those condemned for crimes. And as other decrees followed the first, directing that those in prison if they would sacrifice should be permitted to depart in freedom, but that those who refused should be harassed with many tortures, how could any one, again, number the multitude of martyrs in every province, and especially of those in Africa, and Mauritania, and Thebais, and Egypt? From this last country many went into other cities and provinces, and became illustrious through martyrdom." (Book VIII, Chapter VI)
"In these conflicts the noble martyrs of Christ shone illustrious over the entire world, and everywhere astonished those who beheld their manliness; and the evidences of the truly divine and unspeakable power of our Saviour were made manifest through them. To mention each by name would be a long task, if not indeed impossible." (Chapter XII)
Reading the history of Christians of the first four centuries, it is abundantly clear that the beast "was given power to make war against the saints and to conquer them".
We should note the main reason that was given for the persecution of Christians during this time - it was because these Christians refused to worship the gods of the Roman empire.
Sometimes it would be a local god - but often it would be the refusal to offer incense to Caesar, which would have been an acknowledgement and worship of him as a god.
So John's description of the wild beast is complete, perfect and accurate.
God is a spirit, and an image cannot be made of God, since He is comparable to nothing on earth. However, Satan did not have that problem. So the imperial power was fashioned after him, and made into an idol for the people of the empire to worship.
Furthermore, they worshipped their own gods, who were themselves idols and demons. And so, in every way, the people under the Roman empire, with the exception of Christians (and perhaps the Jews), worshipped the dragon.
The Roman empire exercised authority over "every tribe, people, language and nation." It was the leader of the Gentiles, the ruler of the world.
10-11-2007 11:02 AM
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Post: #98RE: Revelation, chapter by chapter
13:8 All inhabitants of the earth will worship the beast–all whose names have not been written in the book of life belonging to the Lamb that was slain from the creation of the world. 9 He who has an ear, let him hear.
10 If anyone is to go into captivity,
into captivity he will go.
If anyone is to be killed with the sword,
with the sword he will be killed.
This calls for patient endurance and faithfulness on the part of the saints.
All people "worship the beast". This is nothing less than State worship, which was the principal feature of the pagan Roman empire - and, as noted, was one of the principal reasons the Christians of the first 4 centuries were persecuted and put to death - they refused to worship the State!
These ones "have not been written in the book of life belonging to the Lamb".
The prophet Daniel also alluded to a similar book:
"At that time Michael, the great prince who protects your people, will arise. There will be a time of distress such as has not happened from the beginning of nations until then. But at that time your people—everyone whose name is found written in the book—will be delivered. Multitudes who sleep in the dust of the earth will awake: some to everlasting life, others to shame and everlasting contempt. Those who are wise will shine like the brightness of the heavens, and those who lead many to righteousness, like the stars for ever and ever." (Daniel 12:1-3)
So John is drawing a stark contrast - the ones who worship the imperial power are ones not in this book of life.
The book belongs to the Lamb. Strangely, John says he was "slain from the creation of the world".
There are two ways we could see this statement. First, the moment Adam and Eve sinned, and brought slavery to death upon the whole human race, God had already foreordained the way out. This is reflected in God's statement that the woman's "seed" would bruise the serpent in the "head". (Genesis 3)
However, it is also possible that the "creation of the world" is referring to a new creation, through Jesus Christ, to which Paul alluded:
"Therefore, if anyone is in Christ, he is a new creation; the old has gone, the new has come!" (2 Cor 5:17)
Either way, the "book of life" belongs to the Lamb who was slain. The history of early Christianity reflects the war that was being fought between those in the "book of life", and those not in the book.
Christ now issues a caution, to be heard by "he who has an ear":
First, we should note the problem here for any who believe Revelation has not yet commenced fulfillment. What they are basically saying to those early Christians is - hey, despite all your persecutions, tortures and deaths - sorry, but Jesus wasn't really writing to you, but was writing to people 2,000 years later than you
Sorry, but that is, in my humble opinion, nonsense
Jesus was first and foremost talking to those who were suffering under the rule of the beast with "ten horns".
However, to go to the other extreme, and say that Jesus was only talking to Christians of the 1st century, is equally foolish, in my opinion.
So then, when Jesus wants all Christians of all ages to hear, he uses the phrase: "He who has an ear, let him hear." This phrase is also used near the end of each of the 7 messages to the 7 congregations: "He who has an ear, let him hear what the Spirit says to the churches." Each message is finished with a general statement to all Christians.
So then, what Jesus says here is intended to be taken note of by all Christians:
"If anyone is to go into captivity,
into captivity he will go.
If anyone is to be killed with the sword,
with the sword he will be killed."
When under adversity, the natural inclination of man is to fight back. And so, as an example, the Jews sought their independence from Caesar, and failed miserably - losing their city and Temple.
The Christians were not to make that same mistake. They were to be subject to their rulers, just as Paul said:
"Everyone must submit himself to the governing authorities, for there is no authority except that which God has established. The authorities that exist have been established by God. Consequently, he who rebels against the authority is rebelling against what God has instituted, and those who do so will bring judgment on themselves." (Romans 13:1,2)
Since the natural inclination is to rebel against a hard yolk, as did the Jews, Christ's caution was the most timely.
For under the intense persecutions, Christians could have caused immense trouble to the Romans by resisting. Instead, they endured it.
And it was precisely because they endured that the name of Christ spread so rapidly - for as Eusebius reports, every time the persecution intensified, the name of Christian grew more, and the disciples of Christ multiplied, as their opposers continued to marvel!
Indeed, even the common people, who were pagan worshippers, gradually had to acknowledge that the Christians were a most remarkable people, and undoubtedly many were drawn to Christ through the deaths of other Christians.
Thus, John closes his discussion of the first wild beast by saying:
"This calls for patient endurance and faithfulness on the part of the saints."
Patient endurance! Christians of all ages have expected Christ's coming to be close at hand, but Jesus' message was: Be patient, and endure. "He who stands firm to the end will be saved." (Mathew 24:13)
We can understand why Jesus said they needed to show "patient endurance" and "faithfulness", for the persecution which started at the hand of Nero grew more gradually more intense over the decades, and peaked in the time of Diocletian around 300AD.
Around this time, the empire was split into two, under Maxentius in the West and Licinius in the East. Both of whom were persecutors of Christians.
But Constantine had been taught Christian doctrine by Lactantius, and the 7 books he wrote to Constantine on Christian teachings are still in existence.
It was Constantine who brought the persecuting reigns of Maxentius and Licinius to an end, and who issued imperial edicts from Rome to ensure complete freedom of worship for Christians and for all, and for the Christians to have their property restored.
So the period of imperial pagan persecution had come to an end. It was as if the church had been given the empire!
Satan failed to "drown" the woman in the first instance, during the Jewish war. He had therefore turned his attention to the rest of her seed, the Christians, using the power and might of the imperial State.
However, each wave of persecution simply spread the Christian message still further, and with each batch of Christians he put to death, a larger one was raised up, to the point where the empire was full of them.
Even the empire-wide persecutions of Diocletian, the burning of their holy books and churches, and bodily tortures and death could not extinguish these Christians.
So then, Satan warred with and conquered them, but was still not the victor, for he couldn't eliminate them - with each wave of persecution they grew - to the point where it reached even the Roman government.
However, there was one form of attack that had always been successful - an attack from within.
Thus, when Moab couldn't defeat Israel in the wilderness, he called upon Balaam at Pethor.
Balaam's Pethor was the sacred high place "where there was an oracular temple, and hence called Pethor, and Pethora, which meant, place of interpretation, or oracular temple. Here was, no doubt, a college of priests of whom Balaam had been appointed chief Patora" (Proper Names of the Old Testament, Page 296).
Balaam could not curse Israel, but what the Moabites failed to achieve directly, they achieved through seduction:
"While Israel was staying in Shittim, the men began to indulge in sexual immorality with Moabite women, who invited them to the sacrifices to their gods. The people ate and bowed down before these gods. So Israel joined in worshiping the Baal of Peor. And the Lord's anger burned against them." (Numbers 25:1-3)
Having been unable to wipe out the "woman" or her seed, the war takes on yet another form.
John, in vision, is about to see a second wild beast appear. However, there is a lot more confusion and dispute about the second wild beast's identity, so before I discuss it, let's take a closer look at the very first dream recorded in Daniel, which was given to Nebuchadnezzar the king of Babylon, which gives us an outline of world rulership.
Daniel recounts the dream to Nebuchadnezzar:
"“You looked, O king, and there before you stood a large statue—an enormous, dazzling statue, awesome in appearance.
The head of the statue was made of pure gold, its chest and arms of silver, its belly and thighs of bronze, its legs of iron, its feet partly of iron and partly of baked clay.
While you were watching, a rock was cut out, but not by human hands. It struck the statue on its feet of iron and clay and smashed them. Then the iron, the clay, the bronze, the silver and the gold were broken to pieces at the same time and became like chaff on a threshing floor in the summer. The wind swept them away without leaving a trace. But the rock that struck the statue became a huge mountain and filled the whole earth.
“This was the dream, and now we will interpret it to the king. (Daniel 2:31-36)
So then, here are the features of the statue, or image:
(1) A head of gold,
(2) Chest and arms of silver,
(3) Belly and thighs of bronze,
(4) Legs or iron,
(5) Feet of iron and clay.
(6) Rock strikes feet, statue smashed to pieces, rock becomes mountain and fills the earth.
Daniel now proceeds to interpret the dream for Nebuchadnezzar:
"You, O king, are the king of kings. The God of heaven has given you dominion and power and might and glory; in your hands he has placed mankind and the beasts of the field and the birds of the air. Wherever they live, he has made you ruler over them all. You are that head of gold.
“After you, another kingdom will rise, inferior to yours. Next, a third kingdom, one of bronze, will rule over the whole earth.
Finally, there will be a fourth kingdom, strong as iron—for iron breaks and smashes everything—and as iron breaks things to pieces, so it will crush and break all the others.
Just as you saw that the feet and toes were partly of baked clay and partly of iron, so this will be a divided kingdom; yet it will have some of the strength of iron in it, even as you saw iron mixed with clay.
As the toes were partly iron and partly clay, so this kingdom will be partly strong and partly brittle.
And just as you saw the iron mixed with baked clay, so the people will be a mixture and will not remain united, any more than iron mixes with clay.
“In the time of those kings, the God of heaven will set up a kingdom that will never be destroyed, nor will it be left to another people. It will crush all those kingdoms and bring them to an end, but it will itself endure forever.
This is the meaning of the vision of the rock cut out of a mountain, but not by human hands—a rock that broke the iron, the bronze, the clay, the silver and the gold to pieces.
“The great God has shown the king what will take place in the future. The dream is true and the interpretation is trustworthy.” (Daniel 2:37-45)
So then, Nebuchadnezzar is given a broad outline of world rulership from his own rule, to the time at which the kingdom of the God of heaven crushes all the other kingdoms.
We should note here that Daniel talks only of 4 kingdoms, represented by the elements of: gold, silver, bronze and iron.
Daniel says that the king of Babylon himself, Nebuchadnezzar, was the "head of gold".
After him, "another kingdom will rise, inferior to yours." This is undoubtedly referring to the empire of the Medes and Persians, which Daniel himself later records as conquering the Babylonian empire.
Then "a third kingdom, one of bronze, will rule over the whole earth." Later prophecies show that this "third kingdom" was that of the Greeks, and its head was Alexander the Great, until he died and his kingdom was shared out between four of his generals.
We should also note that the Babylonians, Medes and Persians and the Greeks are all named in the book of Daniel - in contrast with the 4th kingdom, which is never explicitly named.
Thus, in Daniel's vision of the ram and goat, Daniel is given the interpretation and the name of the kingdoms involved:
"The two-horned ram that you saw represents the kings of Media and Persia. The shaggy goat is the king of Greece, and the large horn between his eyes is the first king. The four horns that replaced the one that was broken off represent four kingdoms that will emerge from his nation but will not have the same power." (Daniel 8:20-22)
So after Daniel had seen all his visions, he was in possession of all the necessary facts about the first three kingdoms of Babylon, Media and Persia, and Greece - but the fourth kingdom of iron was not named.
In Nebuchadnezzar's dream, the fourth kingdom of iron is described in detail, and it goes through the legs, feet and toes:
It starts off with legs of iron: "for iron breaks and smashes everything—and as iron breaks things to pieces, so it will crush and break all the others."
However, as the statue progresses downwards, it gets weaker in its feet and toes! "Just as you saw that the feet and toes were partly of baked clay and partly of iron, so this will be a divided kingdom; yet it will have some of the strength of iron in it, even as you saw iron mixed with clay."
Finally, the toes are described, a part of the body that was not explicitly mentioned by Daniel when he initially revealed the dream: "As the toes were partly iron and partly clay, so this kingdom will be partly strong and partly brittle. And just as you saw the iron mixed with baked clay, so the people will be a mixture and will not remain united, any more than iron mixes with clay."
We should note also that the rock cut out "not by human hands" strikes the statue in the feet of iron and clay, and the whole image is shattered.
Although the legs of iron are not identified, it is the 4th kingdom to rule - and it is almost universally acknowledged to refer to the Roman empire, which was "strong as iron".
However, the same prophecy foretells that in its "feet" stage it will become mixed with clay, and be "a divided kingdom", and only retain some of its initial strength.
And that finally, in its weakened state of feet and 10 toes, the "rock" would crush it!
Now, imagine that you lived during the Roman empire, and you read this prophecy of Daniel. You'd know that God's kingdom couldn't take over rulership of the world until the mighty Roman power had become "a divided kingdom", and 10 toes had somehow manifested - only to be crushed by God!
This, now, provides a beatiful explanation for the reluctance of Christian writers to spell out this prophecy in too much detail - for it was foretelling the overthrow of their own government! (As if Christians needed yet another reason to be persecuted!)
However, the apostle Paul was aware of the necessity of certain prophecies to be fulfilled, because he calmed the Thessalonians eager expectations of the imminent day of Jehovah with these words:
"Concerning the coming of our Lord Jesus Christ and our being gathered to him, we ask you, brothers, not to become easily unsettled or alarmed by some prophecy, report or letter supposed to have come from us, saying that the day of the Lord has already come. Don't let anyone deceive you in any way, for that day will not come until the rebellion occurs and the man of lawlessness is revealed, the man doomed to destruction. He will oppose and will exalt himself over everything that is called God or is worshiped, so that he sets himself up in God's temple, proclaiming himself to be God. Don't you remember that when I was with you I used to tell you these things? And now you know what is holding him back, so that he may be revealed at the proper time." (2 Thessalonians 2:1-6)
Paul speaks in vague terms about things they already knew, but Paul did not want to set them down explicitly - why is that?
These early Christians were already living under the rule of Nero, who would prove to be a diabolical persecutor of Christians. So the last thing Christians needed would be to give further excuse for persecution, by pointing out the necessary dividing and crushing of the Roman power!
Furthermore, in Daniel chapter 11, in his famous prophecy of the war between the "king of the north" and "king of the south", after their abolishing the daily sacrifice and their setting up "the abomination that causes desolation" (which things the Romans were to do in 70CE, as reported by Josephus), the prophecy also stated that an apostacy would come: "And those who are acting wickedly against the covenant, he will lead into apostacy by means of smooth words." (Dan 11:32, NWT)
So Paul was simply reminding them of things he had taught them verbally, but which were to be found in the book of Daniel... that before Jehovah's day, and the gathering of Christians to him, there had to be certain events take place - a rebellion (apostacy), and a man of lawlessness setting himself up in God's temple.
Certainly it could be argued that this was fulfilled to a certain extent in 70CE, yet the mighty Roman empire, although suffering a head wound, was certainly not "divided" and "crushed" at this time!
Instead, the empire got stronger, and continued "like iron" for a long time.
So then, we must bear in mind Daniel's background information, when examining the second of John's wild beasts...
10-12-2007 12:40 PM
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Post: #101RE: Revelation, chapter by chapter
13:11 Then I saw another beast, coming out of the earth. He had two horns like a lamb, but he spoke like a dragon.
John's vision continues, and becomes even more remarkable, for now he sees a second wild beast emerge - this time "out of the earth".
At this point, we could ask: Why does the first beast emerge from the sea, and the second from the earth?
There are several possible answers to this, and to a certain extent this has influenced how people interpret this second wild beast.
Some Preterists (such as the author of Days Of Vengeance) believe this second beast to be Israel, acting as a false prophet and misleading the world - hence the "sea" represents the Gentiles, and the "earth" (or "land") as the land of Israel.
We have already noted, that for the first wild beast, John draws principally from Daniel's vision of the 4 beasts (in Daniel 7), and the sea, which does seem to imply the "sea" of Gentile mankind.
However, there is another intriguing connection with Daniel. The 4th kingdom in Nebuchadnezzar's statue, the kingdom of iron, eventually gets mixed in with clay - specifically, potter's clay (Aramaic words "pechar" and "chacaph"), from which earthenware vessels are made.
So then, in Daniel's vision, the kingdom of iron (the Roman empire) gets mixed with clay, which means it "will be a divided kingdom; yet it will have some of the strength of iron in it".
And now, here in John's vision, another beast rises from the earth, from which clay vessels are made.
This beast is remarkable, because it had "two horns like a lamb, but he spoke like a dragon".
We should note the amazing contrast here. It's two horns are like a lamb. Of course, John's readers would immediately recognize the imagery, for their Lord was called the Lamb of God!
The lamb was a young sheep, a meek and tender creature. Jesus himself said: "I am the good shepherd; I know my sheep and my sheep know me – just as the Father knows me and I know the Father–and I lay down my life for the sheep." (John 10:14,15)
So the beast's two horns were like this meek young sheep, the lamb. Yet, despite appearances, "he spoke like a dragon".
We are reminded here that there is still a war being fought - a war between the "dragon", Satan, and the "woman" with her seed, the Christians.
So the second beast looks different from the first, but still has a mouth resembling that of a dragon, Satan!
This is quite remarkable imagery, because if we recall, the first wild beast was directly fashioned in the image of Satan, with all the earth worshipping the dragon, and the beast - and this corresponded with the Roman empire: it was both pagan, so that the inhabitants worshipped Satan, and it worshipped the State, in the form of Caesar worship.
Yet this second beast looks like a lamb, the Saviour! The appearance or look of Satan has gone!
So it is most remarkable, then, that the same Empire that had viciously persecuted Christians for nearly 300 years, almost immediately underwent a dramatic transformation, after Constantine.. and itself became Christian!
The persecution and torture stopped, and Christians under Constantine were finally free to practice their religion without hinderance.
At the same time, however, a unique situation emerged. As I said in my last post, imagine if you were living at the time - you had gone from being viciously persecuted, to suddenly witnessing the imperial power embrace your religion... it would have seemed as if the kingdom of the world had literally been given to the saints, in fulfillment of Daniel's prophecies!
And this, it appears, is how the church at the time perceived it, for Eusebius, who wrote his history of the church up until that time, was glowing with praise for Constantine, and the victory for the Christians, as if a new day had arrived, the very kingdom of God. (And, to be fair to Constantine, I think he probably did have good intentions, for he was clearly educated in Christian doctrine, and put an end to the persecutions.)
However, the church had been battered by multiple persecutions for nearly 300 years, and had had to endure many sects and divisions from heretical groups springing up from within - and now it faced a totally unique situation, in that the emperor of Rome had embraced its religion. Plus, certain doctrinal issues were becoming more controversial, such as the nature of Christ.
So, in order to prevent the church from breaking up into schisms, Constantine called for what is now known as the Council of Nicaea, which was held in 325AD.
"The purpose of the council was to resolve disagreements in the Church of Alexandria over the nature of Jesus in relationship to the Father; in particular, whether Jesus was of the same substance as God the Father or merely of similar substance. St. Alexander of Alexandria and Athanasius took the first position; the popular presbyter Arius, from whom the term Arian controversy comes, took the second. The council decided against the Arians overwhelmingly (of the estimated 250-318 attendees, all but 2 voted against Arius.)"
http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/First_Council_of_Nicaea
""Resplendent in purple and gold, Constantine made a ceremonial entrance at the opening of the council, probably in early June, but respectfully seated the bishops ahead of himself." As Eusebius described, Constantine "himself proceeded through the midst of the assembly, like some heavenly messenger of God, clothed in raiment which glittered as it were with rays of light, reflecting the glowing radiance of a purple robe, and adorned with the brilliant splendor of gold and precious stones." He was present as an observer, but he did not vote. Constantine organized the Council along the lines of the Roman Senate."
So although Constantine allowed the church to draw its own conclusion, "Constantine in convoking and presiding over the council signaled a measure of imperial control over the church." (Richard Kieckhefer (1989). "Papacy". Dictionary of the Middle Ages)
So a precedent had already been set, and that precedent was increasingly used by later emperors.
So in 381, emperor Theodosius "summoned a new ecumencial council at Constantinople to fix the schism between East and West on the basis of Nicean orthodoxy. "The council went on to define orthodoxy, including the mysterious Third Person of the Trinity, the Holy Ghost who, though equal to the Father, 'proceeded' from Him, whereas the Son was 'begotten' of Him."
http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Theodosius_I
And "in 391 he declared Christianity [the Nicene version] as the only legitimate imperial religion, ending state support for the traditional Roman religion."
So what does this have to do with John's vision? Well, Daniel foretold that the kingdom of iron would eventually be "divided" and be "mixed with clay"... and now, John was witnessing in vision a beast emerging from the "earth", after seeing the pagan imperial Roman empire.
So, at the very least, we need to consider the progression of the this Roman empire, to see if it fits - even for the purpose of eliminating it as a candidate if it doesn't.
13:12 He exercised all the authority of the first beast on his behalf, and made the earth and its inhabitants worship the first beast, whose fatal wound had been healed. 13 And he performed great and miraculous signs, even causing fire to come down from heaven to earth in full view of men.
Here now was a bizarre situation - the second beast exercising all the authority of the first beast on his behalf!
A good question we could ask at this point is, Why couldn't the first beast exercise its own authority? After all, wasn't the first beast supposed to be the ironlike Roman empire?
Perhaps Daniel's vision provides the answer - maybe we were now in the stage of the ironlike kingdom where the clay was mixed with the iron, weakening it - as foretold by Daniel, "this will be a divided kingdom". (Daniel 2:37-45)
And from a historical point of view, the Roman empire did eventually split into two, the East and the West, while the Nicene version of Christianity, grew ever more prominent - something that would have naturally removed some of the hardness of iron.
However, this second wild beast "made the earth and its inhabitants worship the first beast". This is a mandatory form of worship.
The Nicene version of Christianity was eventually imposed on the inhabitants of the earth. In reference to emperor Theodosius, Wikipedia says:
"In February [380] he and Gratian published an edict that all their subjects should profess the faith of the bishops of Rome and Alexandria (i.e., the Nicene faith)."
Furthermore, pagans were affected too: for example, the eternal fire in the Temple of Vesta in the Roman Forum was extinguished, and the Vestal Virgins were disbanded. (These vestal virgins were the virgin holy priestesses of Vesta, the goddess of the hearth. The second century Roman antiquarian Aulus Gellius writes that the first vestal virgin taken from her parents was led away in hand by Numa Pompilius. Numa also appointed the Pontifex Maximus to preside over rites, prescribe rules for public ceremony, and watch over the Vestals. Allowing the sacred fire of Vesta to die out, suggesting that the Goddess had withdrawn her protection from the city, was a serious offense and was punishable by scourging.)
So then, just as the inhabitants under the first wild beast worshipped Satan through the proxy of idols and Caesar, the second wild beast now made its inhabitants worship the first wild beast, through the proxy of the state's version of Christianity,
Not only that, but "he performed great and miraculous signs, even causing fire to come down from heaven to earth in full view of men"!
Now, understandably this would be a remarkable thing to behold. And indeed, an alternative interpretation, that this second beast could be a political power such as the USA, is a possibility, given that it has literally brought fire out of heaven - Hiroshima and Nagasaki being just two examples.
However, before the arrival of these two wild beasts, John had seen "two witnesses" - and it was said of them that "if anyone tries to harm them, fire comes from their mouths and devours their enemies".
I argued that we were not to take this literally, since God had previously said that Jeremiah's words would be like a fire coming out of his mouth - it was meant metaphorically.
So, while I am quite tempted to take this fire from heaven literally, there are two strong arguments against it...
(a) The "two witnesses" are true prophets, but their description and actions imply they are symbols - in my opinion, representing the Jewish and Gentile Christians that "tormented" the world during Daniel's 70th week.
(b) The second wild beast is Satan's answer, his rebuttal, to the message of those true prophets - it is a false prophet! Specifically, a false prophet working on behalf of the first wild beast, the Roman empire.
If we recall, the two witnesses had the power to strike the earth with plague, to shut up the sky, and to pour fire out of their mouths upon their enemies.
So now this false prophet is granted the same kind of authority.
And so we have quite a bizarre situation, because this mixture of church and state meant that even emperors were rebuked!
"The apparent change of policy that resulted in the "Theodosian decrees" has often been credited to the increased influence of Ambrose, bishop of Milan. It is worth noting that in 390 Ambrose had excommunicated Theodosius, who had recently ordered the massacre of 7,000 inhabitants of Thessalonica, in response to the assassination of his military governor stationed in the city, and that Theodosius performed several months of public penance."
Already, just 70 years after it had been hounded and persecuted by the state, the church was now excommunicating emperors!
However, the situation was about to get a whole lot more remarkable.
10-12-2007 10:07 PM
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Post: #105RE: Revelation, chapter by chapter
13:14 Because of the signs he was given power to do on behalf of the first beast, he deceived the inhabitants of the earth. He ordered them to set up an image in honor of the beast who was wounded by the sword and yet lived.
Here now we see a major difference between the first and the second wild beasts.
The first beast, which I believe was the pagan Roman power, was the image of its father, Satan... but made no attempt to deceive because it was already pagan - and it ruled by sheer might and authority.
However, the second wild beast was fashioned like a lamb. And so, this one is more crafty (still like its father, Satan), because it deceives.
And this is the key difference which, in my opinion, helps us to identify it more clearly. It masquerades as Christian, but is really a deceiver.
While the empire was predominantly pagan, there was no need to deceive "the inhabitants of the earth" any more - they were already thoroughly deceived!
However, as the Christian message spread like wildfire, and every State persecution simply saw Christians multiply, paganism was quickly losing its war with Christ.
Thus, a different approach was needed. And when Constantine brought Christianity to the government, the opportunity developed for a different kind of deception.
And so Christianity was foisted upon its inhabitants - but along with it, the authority of Rome, which grew increasingly powerful as time passed.
However, the imperial Roman power grew gradually weaker, and was eventually divided into two parts - East, with its capital at Constantinople (founded by Constantine), and West.
The Western half of the Roman empire was generally considered to have fallen around 476AD or 480AD, when the Ostrogoths conquered Italy.
The Eastern half continued several hundred years, and we call it the Byzantine Empire, although they themselves called it the Romania, Basileia Romaion or Pragmata Romaion, meaning "Land of the Romans", "Kingdom of the Romans".
However, during the time of these events, another authority was emerging - the Papacy. (We will certainly talk more about this office later).
The Papacy grew in power to the point where, around 800AD, Pope Leo crowned Charlemagne as King of the Romans, and as Imperator Augustus, attempting to revive the empire in the west. Here is how Wikipedia describes it:
"The Holy Roman Empire was a conscious attempt to resurrect the Western Roman Empire, which is considered to have ended with the abdication of Romulus Augustulus in 476. The Emperors thought of themselves as continuing the function of the Roman Emperors in defending, governing and supporting the Church."
http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Roman_empire
Now, let's examine what John says: The second beast "ordered them to set up an image in honor of the beast who was wounded by the sword and yet lived".
So let us look at the broad stroke of the history of the Roman empire - first, the "iron" Roman empire, with its pagan worship and state worship. The state then embraces Christianity, and it becomes the state religion. Eventually, the Roman empire splits into two - and the West fragments (as if "iron" has become mixed with "clay"), but later the Pope (by now the head of the Church) effectively creates the Holy Roman Empire (Sacrum Romanum Imperium) as an image of the western part of the Empire, under the authority of the Church!
At this point, someone could fairly raise the objection that, if this is what John's vision is about, of what relevance was this to 1st century Christians?
It is true that Christ was showing John things that would shortly take place. However, this doesn't mean that the whole of Revelation would all be fulfilled in virtually one go! After all, even the most hardened Preterist would admit that the "thousand years" spans a bit longer than the 1st century.
Besides, Daniel's vision of the four beasts (in Daniel 7) spanned the future history (for Daniel) of hundreds of years for his people the Jews. Revelation was primarily for the benefit of Christians - it was their book of Daniel, as it were!
Hence, Jesus was revealing "what is now and what will take place later", right from John's day up until the end of the "thousand years". (Rev 1:19)
So all of this is very relevant to those 1st century Christians, because that's what keeping awake meant.
In Daniel, they had been given the broad outline of events, but they did not know the specifics - like how the "iron" kingdom would be weakened by clay, or when the "rock" would strike. Their faith was simply that it would.
13:15 He was given power to give breath to the image of the first beast, so that it could speak and cause all who refused to worship the image to be killed.
Once again the religious connotations are evident. This second beast gives breath to the image of the first beast. The word for "breath" is πνεῦμα (pneuma), which is usually translated "spirit" in the Greek scriptures.
However, this isn't God's holy spirit, but a satanically inspired spirit - the second beast's breath! This is the same beast that has two horns like a lamb, making the inhabitants of the earth worship the first wild beast, and deceiving it by false signs and miracles.
Is it coincidence, therefore, that the Roman empre eventually split into two, with the Western part fragmenting, and eventually being fashioned into the Holy Roman Empire, under the authority of the Pope?
(Amazingly, the Holy Roman Empire endured for 1,000 years, leading many in the Catholic Church to see this as the fulfillment of the Millenium, with the time after as the "short time" where Satan has been released.)
Incidentally, it might be worth considering at this point, how the Papacy came about in the first place, in order to assess it's relevance (or not) to John's prophecy.
(For the sake of brevity, I am skipping some of the details and just highlighting the events that shaped world history.)
When emperor Constantine moved his capital to Constantinople in the Eastern part of the empire (around 334AD), the Bishop of Rome became the most influential person in the former capital. After this time, the equality of the churches was progressively weakened, and the authority of the church in Rome grew ever more dominant - until in 606AD, Emperor Phocas made Boniface III the universal bishop - Pope.
The Roman church said that Christ had given Peter (and hence the bishop of Rome, the claimed successor to Peter) the keys of the kingdom - and thus, the Pope was no less than the Vicar of Christ on earth.
Furthermore, the Papal version of Christianity was the only one some of the nations outside of the empire had heard, and so these nations readily accepted the authority of the Pope.
And so, the church's gradual submission to the authority of Rome and the Pope, the blessing of the emperors, and the acceptance of his authority among nations, saw the rise of the power of the Pope.
Around 800, a dispute broke out in the church over the use of images. The East and its emperor was opposed, but "Pope Gregory instigated the Romans to refuse the tribute to the emperor. The revolt was successful; the imperial representative at Ravenna was slain, and the last vestiges of the [Eastern] emperor's jurisdiction over Rome and Italy were annihilated." (The Pope Is The Antichrist, Rev. J. A. Wylie, p26)
"Pepin first, and his son Charlemagne next (774). Conquered the Longobards, and endowed the papal chair with all the cities and lands in Italy which had been subject to the jurisdiction of the Greek rulers. The Pope was now a crowned monarch."
And so, as a result of many amazing circumstances, the self-proclaimed head of Christianity, Christ's representative on earth, and head of the church in Rome, became a monarch: and the Church's "millenium" was just beginning - sadly, the world's Dark Age.
10-14-2007 06:43 PM
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Post: #107RE: Revelation, chapter by chapter
13:16 He also forced everyone, small and great, rich and poor, free and slave, to receive a mark on his right hand or on his forehead, 17 so that no one could buy or sell unless he had the mark, which is the name of the beast or the number of his name. 18 This calls for wisdom. If anyone has insight, let him calculate the number of the beast, for it is man's number. His number is 666.
Probably no other words in the Bible have caused as much excitement, controversy and fear as these words of John - with the possible exception of the four horsemen.
Attempts have been made to demonstrate these words apply to the Pope, Nero, Adolf Hitler, Bill Clinton, Prince Charles - and these are only the more popular interpretations!
First, I should point out that the number 666 is not a triple six, but is actually six hundred (600), sixty (60) and six (6).
However, in both the Hebrew and Greek languages, a separate number system had not fully developed (unlike English, which uses the Arabic numeral system), and so letters of the alphabet were often used to denote numbers.
That is why some ancient manuscripts used the Greek letters that corresponded with these numbers, namely χξϚ (chi-xi-stigma) - where "chi" was 600, "xi" was 60 "and "stigma" was 6.
So by using Greek or Hebrew numbers instead of letters, one could encode someone's name.
We should remember that John's book was written in Greek, a language that lent itself well to this kind of letter-number substitution. Although its seems alien to English speakers, since we have a separate alphabet and number system, to a Greek reader, number-letter substitution was part of the language!
(Thus, the word "calculate" could be used to resolve a number into a word, or vice versa).
So then, with this in mind, there were two popular interpretations known to the early writers in the church, to which we should pay particular attention. Personally, I favour the second - for reasons I'll explain.
For the first, I will let Chilton's Days Of Vengeance explain:
"Clearly, St. John expected that his contemporary readers were capable of using this method to discover the Beast’s name – thus indicating, again, the contemporary message of Revelation; he did not expect them to figure out the name of some 20thcentury official in a foreign government.
At the same time, however, he tells them that it will not be as easy as they might think: it will require someone “who has understanding.” For St. John did not give a number that could be worked out in Greek, which is what a Roman official scanning Revelation for subversive content would expect. The unexpected element in the computation was that it had to be worked out in Hebrew, a language that at least some
members of the churches would know. His readers would have guessed by now that he was speaking of Nero, and those who understood Hebrew probably grasped it instantly. The numerical values of the
Hebrew letters in Neron Kesar (Nero Caesar) are:
n = 50 r = 200 w = 6 n = 50
q = 100 s = 60 r = 200
thus... 666"
An additional argument used to support this view is that "of some related interest is the fact that if Nero’s name is written without the final n (i.e., the way it would occur to a Gentile to spell it in Hebrew), it yields the number 616 – which is exactly the variant reading in a few New Testament manuscripts. The most reasonable explanation for this variant is that it arose from the confusion over the final n." (Days Of Vengeance, p145)
However, while this is quite a compelling argument (and is, to my mind, certainly more plausible than some things that have been suggested), I think there's a better solution.
The early Church father Irenaeus, was the first to write on the subject of this number, in the 2nd century.
After outlining the many symbolic reasons for the number, he then goes on to suggest interpretations that were known to him:
"It is not through a want of names containing the number of that name that I say this, but on account of the fear of God, and zeal for the truth: for the name Evanthas (ΕΥΑΝΘΑΣ) contains the required number, but I make no allegation regarding it. Then also Lateinos (ΛΑΤΕΙΝΟΣ) has the number six hundred and sixty-six; and it is a very probable [solution], this being the name of the last kingdom [of the four seen by Daniel]. For the Latins are they who at present bear rule: I will not, however, make any boast over this [coincidence]. Teitan too, (ΤΕΙΤΑΝ, the first syllable being written with the two Greek vowels ε and ι, among all the names which are found among us, is rather worthy of credit. For it has in itself the predicted number, and is composed of six letters, each syllable containing three letters; and [the word itself] is ancient, and removed from ordinary use; for among our kings we find none bearing this name Titan, nor have any of the idols which are worshipped in public among the Greeks and barbarians this appellation." (Against Heresies Book 5 Chapter 30, sec. 3)
We should note that Irenaeus is cautious. It appears he did not know the solution for certain, but suggested LATEINOS, the Greek form for the Romans, as "very probable", for "the Latins are they who at present bear rule". There is possibly also another reason he was cautious - if the Latins (Romans) represented that "beast", he was living under their rule!
However, here's the reasons I believe his "very probable" solution was the correct one...
(a) As Irenaeus himself notes, the Roman kingdom is the last one mentioned in Daniel's vision of the statue, which progresses from legs of iron, to feet of iron and clay, and 10 toes. In Daniel's vision, there are only ever 4 kingdoms recorded, before the "rock" crushes the statue - the Roman one being the last.
(b) While the Babylonian, Medo-Persian and Greek empires are named in Daniel's vision, the fourth kingdom is not named - and neither is it named by John! Instead, he gives us the number of his name! This is not surprising given the Roman empire proved to be the most horrific persecutor of Jews and Christians. So John is "naming" the un-named empire in Daniel, but only by giving its number!
Furthermore, two other "coincidences" lend weight to this interpretation, to my mind.
Although John is writing in Greek, and so the Greek form Lateinos sums to 666 in Greek, the feminine form of Roman in Hebrew has the value of 666 in Hebrew! (Reference)
Furthermore, the Latin number system (what we call Roman numerals) in existence in John's time consisted of the numbers D,C,L,X,V and I. (The number M had not been developed yet). The sum of those then existing Roman numerals (DCLXVI) was 666!
So then, while Caesar Nero may have summed to 666 (perhaps by divine providence), Lateinos was also 666, for Nero was just the start of the transformation of the imperial power into a wild beast that would hound and persecute Christians.
And then the Roman imperial state evolved into the Roman church-state system, which persecuted in a different way.
So then, if we assume that "Lateinos" is the true meaning of 666, how does this beast force "everyone, small and great, rich and poor, free and slave, to receive a mark on his right hand or on his forehead"?
Many Christians anticipate a time soon in which microchips are shoved into our bodies, or tatoos are stamped on our heads, while an Antichrist breaks forth onto the world.
Certainly, if this happens by compulsion, and is tied into whether we can buy or sell, then I will eagerly re-evaluate the interpretation I am laying out here.
However, until that happens, I think there's a more reasonable explanation - one that can be found in the pages of history, not future.
As I mentioned earlier, by 391AD, Christianity - at least, the Nicene version - had become the only legitimate imperial religion. And as the centuries progressed, the religion with the Pope as its head grew dominant.
Then came the start of the Holy Roman Empire, in which the Papal power held actual dominion over territory, joining the kings of the earth, while claiming to be Christ's mouthpiece at the same time.
And so, we find ourselves in the Middle Ages, which historians also tend to call the Dark Ages - for it was a terrible time for anyone who found themselves an enemy of the Church.
"These ebullitions of pontifical vengeance, it was pretended, were fire out of heaven: the fire of the wrath of God which the Pope had power to evoke, therewith to burn up his enemies. The blinded nations believed that in the voice of the Pope they heard the voice of God, and that the fulminations of the Vatican were the thunderings and lightnings of Divine wrath.
A papal excommunication was more dreadful than the invasion of thousands of armed men. When launched against a kingdom what dismay, misery, and wailing overspread it. The whole course of life was instantly stopped. The lights were extinguished at the altar; the church doors were closed; the bells would not be tolled; marriages were celebrated in the graveyard; and the dead were buried in ditches. Men dared not make merry, for a sense of doom weighed upon their spirits. These terrible edicts pursued men into the other world, and souls arriving from the unhappy realm overhung by the papal curse found the gates of paradise shut, and had to wander forlorn till it should please the divinity of the Seven hills to lift off his sentence. Thus did the Papacy cause "fire" to come down from God out of heaven, and men, believing it to be real fire, were scorched by it. In the days of King John England lay under interdict for more than six years."
To the mightiest sovereign even the papal excommunication was a dreadful affair. He shook and trembled on his throne for his army could give him no protection; it was well, indeed, if both soldiers and subjects did not unite in carrying out the papal behest by driving him from his kingdom, if some fanatic monk, by the more quick despatch of the
dagger, did not save them the trouble.
European history furnishes a list of more than sixty-four emperors and kings deposed by the Popes. In the number is Henry II. of England, deposed by Alexander III.; King John, by Innocent III.; Richard and Edward, by Boniface IX., Henry VIII., by Clement VII., and again by Paul III.; Elizabeth, by Pius V. Even King Robert the Bruce had this terrible curse launched against him, but thanks to the Culdee element still strong in Scotland, King Robert and his subjects held the Pope's fulmination but a brutum fulmen, and so it did not harm them. Almost all the bulls against crowned heads have contained clauses stripping them of their territories, and empowering their neighbour kings to invade and seize them; and influenced partly by a desire to serve the Pope, and partly by the greed of what was not their own, they have not been slow to act on the papal permission." (The Papacy Is The Antichrist, p33-34)
So the "great" were subject to the power of the Church. But so too were the "poor":
"We are told that pope Martin V. in his bull, added to the council of Constance, prohibits Roman catholics from suffering any heretics to dwell in their countries, or to make any bargains, use any trades, or bear any civil offices, which is a very clear interpretation of this prophecy." (Matthew Henry's Commentary on the Whole Bible - Revelation 13, Verses 11-1
What would it mean "to receive a mark on his right hand or on his forehead"?
Earlier on, the 144,000 had "a seal on the foreheads". And at the end of Revelation, when New Jerusalem comes down out of heaven, God's servants will be in that city and "his name will be on their foreheads". (Rev 22:4)
So this marking in the foreheads by the beast is an imitation, a phoney "bride of Christ", by the "lamb" beast that provides the "spirit" or "breath" to the image - it is a vision of a sham, enforced, fake version of Christianity, evolving into a "Holy" Roman Empire (an attempted imitation of the original) which is now viewed as the very fulfillment of the Millenium, and at its head, the Vicar of Christ, ruling from the Papal "See", on the throne of the original Caesars at Rome, with its official language as Latin.
What a mockery of the original Christians, who for 4 centuries had their blood shed across the Roman empire... perhaps for refusing to offer incense to Caesar, or to accept any other Lord.
To those who came out of Egypt under Moses, the Sabbath was, for those Hebrews, to be "like a sign on your hand and a reminder on your forehead that the law of the Lord is to be on your lips." (Exodus 13:16)
Yet the beast that John sees is a pretender - even it's laws being a sham imitation, with its own sabbath day, Sunday - literally the day of the Sun - (whereas the Jewish sabbath commenced friday evening!), being strictly enforced during those dark times.
Understandably, this may sound pretty lame to someone who is expecting a Verichip implant to be enforced any day now - and while that may happen (I certainly wouldn't rule it out) - we must remember that the height of the Church's power was the time of greatest spiritual darkness for the world - which lasted for literally hundreds of years.
So if you think it's bad now, consider life during the time the Church held sway...
For the Roman power locked up God's word in the Latin tongue, while instigating Crusades against political enemies, and Inquisitions against heretics... many of whom were people who simply wanted the Bible translated into the common tongue, so people like you and me could read it!
Our Bibles - along with the freedoms we enjoy today - are built upon the blood of people who died at the hands of the Church, with the Vicar of Christ at its head!
John's Revelation is writing to the true church of Christ, of things that would happen between the time of writing, and the end of the millenium. Do you think Christ would have omitted to mention the rise of the most antagonistic power towards the Lamb that has ever existed?
Personally, I don't think Christ would have overlooked it, just to talk about events of the 1st century alone, or of what would happen to his followers in our day, with continual Verichip threatenings (... any day now!), while ignoring the past 1,900 years of his followers.
10-14-2007 10:02 PM
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Post: #108RE: Revelation, chapter by chapter
REVELATION CHAPTER 14
14:1 Then I looked, and there before me was the Lamb, standing on Mount Zion, and with him 144,000 who had his name and his Father's name written on their foreheads. 2 And I heard a sound from heaven like the roar of rushing waters and like a loud peal of thunder. The sound I heard was like that of harpists playing their harps.
3 And they sang a new song before the throne and before the four living creatures and the elders. No one could learn the song except the 144,000 who had been redeemed from the earth. 4 These are those who did not defile themselves with women, for they kept themselves pure. They follow the Lamb wherever he goes. They were purchased from among men and offered as firstfruits to God and the Lamb. 5 No lie was found in their mouths; they are blameless.
Finally, there is relief from the dark and terrible imagery of the wild beast, with it's 666 name, and its mark stamped upon its follower's heads.
In beautiful contrast, John sees the 144,000, standing upon Mount Zion, with the Lamb. They have the true and authentic seal of God and of the Lamb on their foreheads.
This passage is remarkably similar to one described in Hebrews 12:22-24:
"But you have come to Mount Zion, to the heavenly Jerusalem, the city of the living God. You have come to thousands upon thousands of angels in joyful assembly, to the church of the firstborn, whose names are written in heaven. You have come to God, the judge of all men, to the spirits of righteous men made perfect, to Jesus the mediator of a new covenant, and to the sprinkled blood that speaks a better word than the blood of Abel."
These 144,000 are the "church of the firstborn". They are the firstfruits of those whose names have been written in heaven.
Jesus Christ himself was described by Paul as "the firstfruits" in 1 Corinthians 15:23, because he was the first to rise from the dead to everlasting life.
However, Jesus' death was the beginning of a great harvest. As Paul said, "What you sow does not come to life unless it dies." (1 Cor 15:36)
After Christ, died and was resurrected, he began to gather his harvest - the first reaping taking place when the Jewish Christians fled Jerusalem around 66CE.
Now, in this portion of Revelation, we shall note the predominance of the reaping theme once again - and this one is to be a great harvest!
The 144,000 are shown here for two reasons - to provide a contrast once again between the holy and unholy, and to remind us of a harvest - these are "firstfruits to God and the Lamb", but they are not the only fruits to God and the Lamb.
They "did not defile themselves with women", and "they kept themselves pure". Other translations are more specific - they are described as virgins!
Should we take this literally, then? The context argues against it. For just before their description, we saw a two-horned wild beast masquerading as a lamb, deceiving the world with false signs, and false worship. This was a spiritual adultery, a pretense of Christianity. This can only happen when Church and State mix in an adulterous relationship.
This is reinforced by the description, still to be introduced to us, of a "woman" called Babylon the Great, described as a prostitute.
So then, the 144,000 then are spiritually pure. They are a contrast to the adulterous woman of which the Bible will shortly speak. "No lie was found in their mouth" - once again, in stark contrast to the two-horned wild beast, that deceives the inhabitants by masquerading as Christian, lamb-like.
10-16-2007 08:47 PM
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Post: #109RE: Revelation, chapter by chapter
14:6 Then I saw another angel flying in midair, and he had the eternal gospel to proclaim to those who live on the earth–to every nation, tribe, language and people. 7 He said in a loud voice, “Fear God and give him glory, because the hour of his judgment has come. Worship him who made the heavens, the earth, the sea and the springs of water.” 8 A second angel followed and said, “Fallen! Fallen is Babylon the Great, which made all the nations drink the maddening wine of her adulteries.”
John now sees 3 angels, the first of which flies in midair (or "midheaven") and proclaims the "eternal gospel" to the whole earth - to "every nation, tribe, language and people".
To a certain extent, there is a timeless message being proclaimed by each of the 3 angels, namely...
(1) Worship God
(2) Babylon has fallen
(3) Do not worship the beast or receive its mark.
These are revelant for Christians of all time periods.
However, the angels do appear to be marking a specific time, because the first angel says, "the hour of his judgment has come".
Before we discuss this time period, the second angel introduces us to what appears to be a new character - "Babylon the Great". At this stage of Daniel's visions, this entity is barely mentioned, but it will be mentioned again in Revelation 16, and its fall is described in exquisite detail in chapters 17 and 18.
For now, all we are told is that she is "Fallen! Fallen...", and that she "made all the nations drink the maddening wine of her adulteries".
At this stage, it's worth noting that there a 3 principal interpretations of who Babylon is, and whichever system of interpretation you subscribe to will naturally determine when you would see these verses as being fulfilled.
Many (but not all) Preterists believe that Babylon is Jerusalem, which was God's wife (as Israel), but became an adulteress. On her, Jesus said would come "all the righteous blood that has been shed on earth, from the blood of righteous Abel to the blood of Zechariah son of Berekiah, whom you murdered between the temple and the altar." (Mathew 23:35) The "nations" were made to drink her maddening wine, to the point where the Romans (representing these "nations") brought about her fall, in 70CE.
Thus, says the Preterist, the angel here is speaking of the time after the "great tribulation" upon Jerusalem, when the 144,000 (Jewish Christians) escaped, and Babylon as Jerusalem had "fallen" - the "eternal gospel" goes out to the nations.
Then there is the Historicist viewpoint (such as the Bible students and JWs before the Rutherford era), which sees Babylon as Rome (or perhaps Vatican City within Rome), which had "locked" the gospel up during the Dark Ages. But from the time of the French Revolution, and Napolean, the temporal (worldly) power of Babylon was reduced to just physically running the enclave in Rome known as Vatican City - suffering a "fall", although it still exists until its future destruction.
Thus, says the Historicist, the angel here is speaking of the time when the gospel was "revived" in the latter half of the 1700's, and the 1800's.
Then, of course, there is the Watchtower viewpoint, which is that Babylon represents "false religion" in general. She was "fallen" after 1919, and will "fall" in a physical sense before Armageddon.
Since I adhere to no particular system of interpretation, but am interpreting it based on what I personally believe is the best match as we progress, I think the Historicists are closest with their interpretation at this point, although I would not venture to set any specific time periods, as Historicists are keen to do.
I don't think it's Israel, for reasons that I will make more explicit once we get to discuss Babylon in greater detail. However, I can understand why Preterists would think it's Israel (or Jerusalem more specifically), for Israel does share (or rather, did share) some of the characteristics of the entity I think it is, so the references are similar.
I also don't believe it is "false religion", because Revelation is more specific, in my opinion - however, I will have to reserve the details until later.
For Christians, the relevant history is: Jerusalem fell in 70AD, and Christianity was hounded mercilessly by the Roman imperial power, until the persecution ceased shortly after 300AD. Within a matter of decades, a "Nicene council" version of Christianity became the State religion, and so began the long descent into spiritual darkness and the rise of the Papacy, the clergy/laity distinction, scripture only in Latin, with control over just about everything by the Church.
This lasted until several revolutions broke the power of the Church - the English and French in particular; while many had fled to America because of the persecution they experienced in Europe. So the "eternal gospel" could only hope to be proclaimed again, once the power of the Church had been broken.
So then, just as in the fall of Jerusalem, John saw an angel standing on the sea and earth with an opened scroll for him to prophecy again to the nations, now in chapter 14, the "hour of his judgment has come", so the angel says to "Fear God and give him glory".
To me, this cannot be the hour of judgement upon Jerusalem, but is the hour of judgement of the world.
10-16-2007 09:42 PM
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Post: #110RE: Revelation, chapter by chapter
14:9 A third angel followed them and said in a loud voice: “If anyone worships the beast and his image and receives his mark on the forehead or on the hand, 10 he, too, will drink of the wine of God's fury, which has been poured full strength into the cup of his wrath. He will be tormented with burning sulfur in the presence of the holy angels and of the Lamb. 11 And the smoke of their torment rises for ever and ever. There is no rest day or night for those who worship the beast and his image, or for anyone who receives the mark of his name.” 12 This calls for patient endurance on the part of the saints who obey God's commandments and remain faithful to Jesus. 13 Then I heard a voice from heaven say, “Write: Blessed are the dead who die in the Lord from now on.”
“Yes,” says the Spirit, “they will rest from their labor, for their deeds will follow them.”
This third angel warns against worshipping the beast and receiving its mark. We get the sense of God's anger here, when it says that the "wine of God's fury" has been poured "full strength" (or "undiluted" - NWT) into the cup of his wrath.
This implies an imminent judgement on the beast and those worshipping it - God is about to force them to drink the wine!
Although the beast is the Roman power, this is a warning for Christians throughout the ages. The Church got into bed with the State starting from the 4th century, and we only have to look into the pages of history to see the tragic result - forced conversions, Inquisitions, Crusades, burnings at the stake for "heresy", the Papacy.
Those who worship the beast and who receive the mark will be "tormented with burning sulfur". In earlier times this was interpreted to be a symbol for hellfire.
Later on in Revelation, both the "beast" and "false prophet" are thrown into "the fiery lake of burning sulfur". (19:20) Since they make no further appearance, while Satan is thrown into an abyss, and makes a return at the end of 1,000 years - it seems that burning sulfur and fire is a symbol of destruction. Those worshipping the beast are destroyed!
"The smoke of their torment rises for ever and ever". The Greek for "ever and ever" literally means "ages of ages", and is the strongest term in Greek for an indefinitely long period of time. Some argue that a recovery is still possible (i.e. that the period is finite), but I would argue that the use of this phrase combined with fire and sulfur implies that there is no recovery - this is a complete, final and unrecoverable destruction.
Either way, it is a warning in the strongest possible terms against worshipping the beast or receiving the mark.
Once again, we are told that "this calls for patient endurance on the part of the saints".
This phrase implies that the threat of the "mark" is not a one-time danger, like a global microchip implant, but is ever a danger for Christians - hence the need for "patient endurance"!
The "mark" has taken different forms over the centuries. In the 1st century, it was offering incense to Caesar. In the 20th or 21st, it might be agreeing to give political allegiance to a certain party - just as the established Churches in Europe compromised with political leaders during World Wars I and II.
John hears a voice from heaven say, "Blessed are the dead who die in the Lord from now on."
In a way, this chapter is an extension of John's vision of the two beasts - hence the warnings about worshipping it. So then, this statement could be seen as applying from John's day onwards - all who are killed by the beast for refusing the mark are considered "blessed". They later get special consideration, because they are the first to be resurrected! (Revelation 20:4)
10-20-2007 10:21 AM
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Post: #111RE: Revelation, chapter by chapter
14:14 I looked, and there before me was a white cloud, and seated on the cloud was one “like a son of man” with a crown of gold on his head and a sharp sickle in his hand. 15 Then another angel came out of the temple and called in a loud voice to him who was sitting on the cloud, “Take your sickle and reap, because the time to reap has come, for the harvest of the earth is ripe.” 16 So he who was seated on the cloud swung his sickle over the earth, and the earth was harvested.
And now we come to the climax of God's wrath, and also the culmination of the harvest theme. The 144,000 were firstfruits, but now the rest of the world is about to be harvested!
John sees a "white cloud", and on the cloud, one "like a son of man"! This is undoubtedly Jesus Christ - since he has "a sharp sickle in his hand", he is ready to reap the earth!
During his ministry, Jesus gave a parable of the man "who sowed good seed in his field." The Devil comes along and sowed weeds amongst the wheat, and they both grow up. Someone asks, in regard to the weeds, "Do you want us to go and pull them up?"
The householder answers: "No... because while you are pulling the weeds, you may root up the wheat with them. Let both grow together until the harvest. At that time I will tell the harvesters: First collect the weeds and tie them in bundles to be burned; then gather the wheat and bring it into my barn." (Mathew 13:24-30)
Later on, Jesus explains the parable to his disciples:
"The one who sowed the good seed is the Son of Man. The field is the world, and the good seed stands for the sons of the kingdom. The weeds are the sons of the evil one, and the enemy who sows them is the devil. The harvest is the end of the age, and the harvesters are angels. As the weeds are pulled up and burned in the fire, so it will be at the end of the age. The Son of Man will send out his angels, and they will weed out of his kingdom everything that causes sin and all who do evil. They will throw them into the fiery furnace, where there will be weeping and gnashing of teeth. Then the righteous will shine like the sun in the kingdom of their Father. He who has ears, let him hear." (Mathew 13:38-43)
The destruction of Jerusalem was an "end of the age", and the kingdom of the world became Christ's. However, it is clear from history that not all causes of sin and evil were removed from the world at that time - the harvest of the world was not yet ready - so this is a different "end of the age" than the one upon Jerusalem.
Over the past 2,000 years or so, wheat and weeds have grown together, along with causes of "sin" and "evil". However, John is seeing the point at which "the time to reap has come" - the cup of the wine of God's wrath is full and about to overflow.
The age of the beast is about to come to an end! - the sickle is swung, and the earth is harvested. This is the second harvest to be gathered, after the firstfruits of the 144,000 had been gathered.
10-20-2007 10:45 AM
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Post: #112RE: Revelation, chapter by chapter
14:17 Another angel came out of the temple in heaven, and he too had a sharp sickle. 18 Still another angel, who had charge of the fire, came from the altar and called in a loud voice to him who had the sharp sickle, “Take your sharp sickle and gather the clusters of grapes from the earth's vine, because its grapes are ripe.” 19 The angel swung his sickle on the earth, gathered its grapes and threw them into the great winepress of God's wrath. 20 They were trampled in the winepress outside the city, and blood flowed out of the press, rising as high as the horses' bridles for a distance of 1,600 stadia."
This second angel has "charge of the fire". The previous harvest appears to be the equivalent to the harvest of the "wheat", while now John is witnessing the harvest of the weeds, which are to be "burned in the fire" according to Jesus' parable. (Mathew 13:40)
The "clusters of grapes from the earth's vine" are ripe, and so they are reaped, and the angel "threw them into the great winepress of God's wrath".
Here we see the vast scale of God's anger - held back patiently until now, for the symbol to represent this anger goes from a full cup of wine to a vast winepress!
These "grapes" are "trampled in the winepress outside the city". The question is, which city is being referenced here? The only city that has a context here is Babylon, which was mentioned 9 verses earlier. (14:
So then, looking at the bigger picture, it seems that Babylon falls, and then the winepress "outside the city" is trampled.
There is a sense of a military slaughter here, for horses are usually used for war - and the blood rises as high as their bridles!
The blood flows "for a distance of 1,600 stadia".
This number is a square of 40 (i.e. 40 x 40), and 40 is often used throughout scripture as a number of judgement (such as the 40 years Israel wandered in the wilderness).
Alternatively, this is 4 x 4 x 10 x 10, perhaps symbolizing the entire earth (4 x 4) and the completeness of the judgement (10 x 10).
Preterists also point out that 1,600 stadia is slightly more than the length of Palestine: "The whole Land of Israel is thus represented as overflowing with blood in the coming nationwide judgment." (Days Of Vengeance, p154)
As a full Preterist, the author believes that Babylon is Jerusalem, and the battle of Har-Magedon (in chapter 16) is the destruction of Jerusalem.
However, I personally believe this trampling of the winepress is yet future. That's not to say it isn't a reference to Palestine - it may be. But history with regard to Palestine is far from over!
I will discuss this more when I get to Chapter 16.
10-20-2007 11:27 AM
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Post: #113RE: Revelation, chapter by chapter
I've just come across a couple of links for people who are interested in the history of the Papacy - I thought I'd post them here for my own benefit, and for the benefit of those who'd like a bit more background info than I could provide in this thread.
First, is an essay on the estimated number of people that have been directly or indirectly killed by the Papacy. It is impossible to calculate an exact figure, but some sources existimate between 50 and 100 million people.
For instance, in the Crusades against the Waldensians, one source estimates that about 2 million of them died:
"From A.D. 1160-1560 the Waldensians which dwelt in the Italian Alps were visited with 36 different fierce persecutions that spared neither age nor sex (Thomas Armitage, A History of the Baptists, "Post-Apostolic Times - The Waldensians," 1890). They were almost completely destroyed as a people and most of their literary record was erased from the face of the earth."
This link is for the benefit of those who perhaps consider the idea that the Roman Papacy couldn't have anything to do with 666.
The second link is a book by Rev. J.A. Wylie, a prolific Scottish Protestant of the 1800's. The book is called "The Papacy:
Its History, Dogmas, Genius, and Prospects".
The Papal power - Christ's representative on earth (or so it claims) has been responsible for causing more wars and bloodshed than any other single entity.
D'ya think it might deserve a mention somewhere in God's prophetic word?
15:1 I saw in heaven another great and marvelous sign: seven angels with the seven last plagues–last, because with them God's wrath is completed. 2 And I saw what looked like a sea of glass mixed with fire and, standing beside the sea, those who had been victorious over the beast and his image and over the number of his name. They held harps given them by God 3 and sang the song of Moses the servant of God and the song of the Lamb:
“Great and marvelous are your deeds,
Lord God Almighty.
Just and true are your ways,
King of the ages.
4 Who will not fear you, O Lord,
and bring glory to your name?
For you alone are holy.
All nations will come
and worship before you,
for your righteous acts have been revealed.”
God's wrath is about to be "completed" in "seven last plagues". This is another sign given to John.
John sees a sea of glass and fire, and those who had been victorious over the beast. This seems to allude to the Israelites and their victory over Egypt at the Red Sea. (This would explain why their song is the song of Moses, as well as the Lamb.)
The questions we could ask here is: Where are they, and When do (or did) they gain this victory?
They cannot be in heaven or on earth at this point, because only after the wild beast is thrown into the "lake of fire", and Satan is abyssed, do the victors over the beast get resurrected!
So I would argue this is symbolic - they are still dead, awaiting a resurrection, but in God's eyes they have scored a great victory. In earlier passages, the dead martyrs in Christ were "given a white robe" - a symbol of their being found worthy. Here, these martyrs "held harps given them by God". They did not die in vain, but they will symbolically join in the victory song over the beast.
As to when they gain this victory, it is clearly before the beast is destroyed - for that is the purpose of the "seven last plagues".
10-21-2007 06:48 PM
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Post: #115RE: Revelation, chapter by chapter
Rev 15:5 After this I looked and in heaven the temple, that is, the tabernacle of the Testimony, was opened. 6 Out of the temple came the seven angels with the seven plagues. They were dressed in clean, shining linen and wore golden sashes around their chests. 7 Then one of the four living creatures gave to the seven angels seven golden bowls filled with the wrath of God, who lives for ever and ever. 8 And the temple was filled with smoke from the glory of God and from his power, and no one could enter the temple until the seven plagues of the seven angels were completed.
Here we have something similar to the opening of the "seventh seal" in Revelation 8. Then, it was seven angels with seven trumpets... this time, it's seven golden bowls "filled with the wrath of God".
I argued that the seven trumpets symbolized the fall of Jerusalem, of which the fall of Jericho was a foreshadow.
This time, the "seven golden bowls" will spell the fall of "Babylon", the city which as yet has remained unidentified.
This is a city which has produced rivers of martyr's blood, and for which punishment is due.
A valid question at this point would be: If Babylon had apparently fallen in chapter 14, verse 8, how can it fall again?
I suspect the proclamations of the 3 angels in chapter 14 are warnings. Those proclamations were...
"Fear God and give him glory, because the hour of his judgment has come."
"Fallen! Fallen is Babylon the Great, which made all the nations drink the maddening wine of her adulteries."
"If anyone worships the beast and his image and receives his mark on the forehead or on the hand, he, too, will drink of the wine of God's fury."
Since the wine of God's fury had not yet been poured out, this was a warning to the inhabitants of the earth.
An alternative explanation is put forth by Historicists. They argue that Babylon was allowed to rule for 1,260 years in the guise of the Papal power, which rule ended around 1798. From that time onwards, the Papal power experienced a "fall" from which it has never recovered, by losing its temporal power (i.e. it's territories, with the exception of Vatican City) - so, they claim, there is a double fulfillment - a loss of temporal power, followed in the future by a final destruction.
If it turns out that we can identify Babylon somehow with the Papal power, then this view may have merit.
10-21-2007 07:10 PM
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Post: #116RE: Revelation, chapter by chapter
REVELATION CHAPTER 16
16:1 Then I heard a loud voice from the temple saying to the seven angels, “Go, pour out the seven bowls of God's wrath on the earth.” 2 The first angel went and poured out his bowl on the land, and ugly and painful sores broke out on the people who had the mark of the beast and worshiped his image.
And so the seven last plagues begin.
These plagues are similar to the plagues upon Egypt, the purpose of which was to release the Hebrews from slavery to the Egyptians. (Exodus 6:6)
This time, the bondage was to Babylon - and it was not just to be plagued, but destroyed.
Preterists who believe Jerusalem to be Babylon, point out that one of the curses in the Law covenant for apostacy and idolatry was boils: "The Lord will afflict you with the boils of Egypt and with tumors, festering sores and the itch, from which you cannot be cured." (Deuteronomy 28:27)
By contrast, Historicists see the boils as symbolic. After the time for Papal rule expired, the French Revolution and the liberalism and atheism of the time swept across Europe, ushering in a time of trouble for the Church.
"The reasons why these judgment vials were sent upon the nations of Europe was due to their former oppression of God’s people. From the earliest days, when the catholic popes received their first temporal sovereignty at the hands of the Carolingian kings, France comprised the backbone of the Roman catholic papacy and was the very center of power and authority to the apostate Roman catholic church. During the 14th century the papal throne was removed from Rome to Avignon, in France, where it remained for about 70 years.
During this period all the popes were French and all their policies were shaped and controlled by the French kings. The history of the apostate church during the dark ages is also a history of France, since the affairs of both were so closely interwoven. It is therefore, a befitting symbol that the sea in this part of the Apocalypse would represent France, while the other nations would be viewed as tributaries.
The French Revolution, which had its beginning on May 5,1789 in the Convocation of the States-General, was a terrible blow to the thrones of dictatorships throughout Europe. The convocation met to address the grievances and liberation of the government and nation from the difficulties under which they were laboring. There had developed a sharp conflict between totalitarian rule and human rights, a conflict that pitted the throne and its nobles who contended for absolute power, against the masses of people who sought for freedom from their dictatorship. When the popular rights party won this battle, there no longer was fear of God in the eyes of those who seized government power. The infidelity of Voltaire and his associates had removed the last restraint upon human passion and the terrors that followed are without parallel in history."
http://www.siscom.net/~direct/revelation...lagues.htm
As earlier noted, the two main competing identities for Babylon are: Rome, and Jerusalem. These were the two principal cities in John's day, and remarkably, still have meaning to people even today! For Jerusalem was re-taken by Israel in 1967, and Rome remains the location of the Papacy, and head of the Roman Catholic Church.
So then, most interpreters (with the exception of Futurists, who see all of Revelation as yet future) view this passage as having already happened - either in the 1st century, or in the revolutions that sprang up across Europe at the beginning of the 1800's (or, JWs interpret these as happening in the earlier part of the 20th century.)
Since I have previously argued that the first wild beast represented the imperial pagan Roman empire of the first 4 centuries, and the second wild beast represented the Roman empire in its divided state, divided into East and West, with the West being fashioned into a "Holy" Roman Empire (as an image of the first beast), and with the Papacy as its head, I personally suspect that the Historicist viewpoint may be closer to the truth.
However, the French Revolution (and perhaps the American Revolution overseas, which can be dated to the same era as the one in France) was really the start of the woes for the Church. And while in America it could be argued that it led to a greater love of God and the Bible, Europe tended to go the opposite way - towards atheism.
And as the above author says, it was principally the powers of Europe that harboured the most antagonism for God's people. So is it merely a coincidence that Europe has experienced the most intense troubles, from the time of the French Revolution onwards?
World War I broke out in Europe. So did World War II. And during both of those wars, the Church took up its traditional role - of goading on the warmakers.
Incidentally, if we look at Nebuchadnezzar's dream of the statue, we notice that the 4th kingdom of iron runs from the "legs", "feet" and into the "toes" (Daniel 2)
The legs of iron are strong: "as iron breaks things to pieces, so it will crush and break all the others".
However, by the time of the feet and toes, another element has been introduced - potter's clay. "Just as you saw that the feet and toes were partly of baked clay and partly of iron, so this will be a divided kingdom; yet it will have some of the strength of iron in it, even as you saw iron mixed with clay."
Daniel even provides an intepretation of the toes! "As the toes were partly iron and partly clay, so this kingdom will be partly strong and partly brittle. And just as you saw the iron mixed with baked clay, so the people will be a mixture and will not remain united, any more than iron mixes with clay."
So then, just as the Roman empire eventually divided, and went on to become the Byzantine Empire and the Holy Roman Empire, the Holy Roman Empire eventually fragmented into various independent states, particularly in Europe.
And it just so happens that these states in Europe experienced the effects of the French Revolution, the conquest of Napoleon, and the devastations of World Wars I and II.
They "will not remain united", as Daniel says!
I can't give a definitive interpretation of these plagues, but if the wild beasts are what I think they are, then the tribulations in Europe upon those beast-worshipping people could well be seen as divine vengeance for their treatment of God's people!
This is certainly not an impossibility, in my opinion.
10-21-2007 08:13 PM
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Post: #117RE: Revelation, chapter by chapter
3 The second angel poured out his bowl on the sea, and it turned into blood like that of a dead man, and every living thing in the sea died. 4 The third angel poured out his bowl on the rivers and springs of water, and they became blood. 5 Then I heard the angel in charge of the waters say:
“You are just in these judgments,
you who are and who were, the Holy One,
because you have so judged;
6 for they have shed the blood of your saints and prophets,
and you have given them blood to drink as they deserve.”
7 And I heard the altar respond:
“Yes, Lord God Almighty,
true and just are your judgments.”
The second and third bowls both involve blood. Turning water into blood was the first plague that struck Egypt by God at the hand of Moses.
The two witnesses also had "power over waters to turn them to blood". (Rev 11:6)
There is also a correspondence between the 2nd and 3rd bowls, and the 2nd and 3rd trumpets. In the second trumpet, "a third of the sea turned into blood", killing "a third of the living creatures in the sea". This second bowl kills "every living thing in the sea".
Similarly, in the third trumpet, a star called Wormwood falls on "a third of the rivers and on the springs of water", so that "third of the waters turned bitter". In the third bowl, the rivers and springs of water all turn to blood.
I showed how the earlier trumpets seemed to correspond with the Jewish war - in particular, the sea battles where dead bodies would be found in the Jordan river, and floating in the Dead Sea, and the shipwrecks, as described by Josephus.
However, those two trumpets mainly affected a third of things, showing their limited intensity.
These two bowls, on the other hand, are total - affecting all the sea, and all the rivers and springs.
They are also judgements - namely, vengeance for "the blood of... saints and prophets"!
I will outline alternative interpretations shortly, but the fact that there are two bowls involving blood, on an order of magnitude from a third to all... I can't help but think of one thing (well, two actually!)...
World War 1, and...
World War 2!
As I've already discussed, the throne of the wild beast - from the 1st century until today, has always been situated in Europe. The Roman empire's capital was Rome, and when the Western half evolved into the "Holy" Roman Empire, the physical capital changed at times, but the spiritual capital was situated primarily in Rome (although it spent a short time in Avignon in France).
So then, Europe has spent most of its history under the rule of the beast, and for a very long time, those who refused the mark of the beast in Europe were martyred - relief only coming from the Revolutions that took place around the late 1700's and early 1800's.
The spiritual vacuum left by the fall of Papal domination in Europe meant the rise of dictators, and the ascendancy of kings. Nations that had formerly been manipulated by the Papacy were now free to explore their imperial ambitions unhindered - until in 1914, those European empires came to blows in one of the most devastating wars at the time. It was known as the Great War, and it killed at least 19 million people.
Yet within a few decades, Europe was once again thrown into the midst of an even more horrible war - what we now call World War II. This war cost the lives of at least 40 million, and devastated many parts of Europe.
http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/List_of_war...death_toll
(Ironically, Hitler's short-lived "Third Reich" was an attempt to rebuild the Holy Roman Empire again - hence the "third"!)
Although it is impossible to calculate an exact figure, it has been estimated that between 50 and 100 million died directly or indirectly because of the Church throughout the ages. (Since we are talking about the "Middle" ages, poor records were kept. And it was usually "local" authorities that would administer the executions.)
So whether or not it was divine vengeance, the fact of the matter is, these two World Wars, fought primarily in the "heart of the beast" as it were, shed possibly an equivalent amount of blood as was shed by those who refused the "mark" of the beast!
Historicists generally believe these second and third bowls were connected with the French Revolution:
"The French republic encouraged the aggressions and by an unanimous decree of the assembly in 1792, set itself in open hostility with all the established governments of Europe. Having accomplished its work in France by destroying royal dictatorship, the revolution now set about to fulfill its early promise of giving liberty to all peoples. France conceived the idea that she was the great apostle of liberty and that she had a mission to promote republicanism through all the kingdoms of Europe. In her madness to do so France sounded the alarm of war to every nation until the whole continent was converted into one vast battleground.
In the vision of the third vial, the angel from God declares these judgments on the divided nations of the Roman empire and upon its apostate church, to be just and righteous. The reason for these judgments was because these so-called religious nations under Catholic and Protestant rule had shed the blood of the saints and the prophets. Now, blood was given to them to drink, for they are worthy.
The French revolution, with its extension into the nations of Europe, was the righteous judgment of a righteous God upon those who denied His name and who persecuted His people. The sea, the rivers, and the fountains of waters are symbols of those nations who had been the persecutors of the saints of God. They had shed the blood of God’s people and now the same cup of wrath was placed upon them. God remembered the sighs and groans of his faithful followers and the cry of the martyrs who sought for the avenging of their blood on them that dwell upon the earth. The time of retribution had come."
http://www.siscom.net/~direct/revelation...lagues.htm
I do sympathize with the Historicist's point of view, but I also suspect that the intensity of the second and third bowls may actually be symbolizing the intense amount of blood shed by World Wars I and II.
Those wars could never have been fought, had its mainly "Christian" population not received the mark of the beast: in both wars, Catholic fought Catholic, and Protestant killed Protestant.
Two very fitting "plagues" of blood in the heart of the beast-worshipping territory.
10-23-2007 11:42 PM
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Post: #118RE: Revelation, chapter by chapter
8The fourth angel poured out his bowl on the sun, and the sun was given power to scorch people with fire. 9 They were seared by the intense heat and they cursed the name of God, who had control over these plagues, but they refused to repent and glorify him.
The fourth trumpet of Revelation 8 turned a third of the sun, moon and stars dark, which I suggested symbolized the turmoil of leadership that took place during the period of the Jewish war. When Nero died in 68AD, the Roman empire fell into a period of insecurity and civil war - three emperors arose and were swiftly killed. And in Jerusalem, there were 3 competing factions that were at war, causing intense suffering to the population who were trapped inside the city.
Now, in the last plagues, at the pouring of the fourth bowl, the reverse is happening - the sun is turned up! Naturally, at this intensity, there is no room for even the showing of the moon or stars!
To me, it is quite remarkable that - in a very literal sense - the event that probably symbolizes the end of World War II to most people was... the atom bombing of Hiroshima and Nagasaki! "Intense heat", indeed!
However, if the sun, moon and stars represented the political heavens during the "great tribulation" of the 1st century, then the "intense heat" of the sun here should have a political meaning.
And I'd say there's a strong match - for out of the furnace of those turbulent times arose brutal dictators that ruled over large parts of the earth: Hitler over Germany and much of Western Europe at one point; Stalin over Russia and Eastern europe; Mussolini over Italy.
In complete contrast to dimming sun, moon and stars, these rulers were brutal - the "sun" was scorching.
The result? "They cursed the name of God, who had control over these plagues"!
Stalin ruled over the Soviet Union and indirectly over the Eastern part of Europe, which rule was athiestic and communistic - religion being merely the "opium of the people".
And Hitler had his own religious agenda, with his desire to control the Church and found his own 1,000 year rule.
So by their actions, and even in some cases by their words, they "cursed God".
Certainly they did not "repent and glorify him". So the intense ruling "sun" they received was a direct consequence of failing to repent and glorify God. They had rejected God, and were reaping the consequences.
There may also be a darker side to the symbology here, for right in the heart of the Nazi beast, ovens were literally scorching people with fire - particularly the Jews.
So then, the closing years of World War II, and the beginning of the Cold War, were a time when it was like the sun had been turned up in intensity - both politically, with the brutally efficient dictators that ruled Europe; and literally, in the genocidal ovens that were burning, and in the atom bombs that closed War War II.
10-24-2007 12:19 AM
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Post: #119RE: Revelation, chapter by chapter
10 The fifth angel poured out his bowl on the throne of the beast, and his kingdom was plunged into darkness. Men gnawed their tongues in agony 11 and cursed the God of heaven because of their pains and their sores, but they refused to repent of what they had done."
Out of the intensity of World War II and the rise of Communism, there developed between the East and West what we called a "Cold War". Europe was split between the victors, with the Soviet Union essentially having control of everything up to the east half of Germany.
The Berlin Wall symbolized this divide, and at least in the West, the dividing line between the secretive and shadowy East and the more open West was referred to as the "Iron Curtain" - like a curtain drawn to block out the sun.
So then, this bowl reverses the previous bowl, where the sun was intensified - this time, the throne of the beast is darkened!
With darkness, comes the cold. Behind the Iron Curtain, during this Cold War, religion could only be practiced in secret, for the official position was usually atheism. There was no "supernatural" God. The State was the only god that could be recognized.
In the West, men did not draw closer to God, but instead resorted to materialism, which brought its own spiritual darkness.
So their gnawing their tongues in agony is probably a symbolism for the torments of this political and spiritual darkness - devoid of any nourishing and healing light.
The result was that they "cursed the God of heaven... but they refused to repent of what they had done."
We could ask, how exactly would they "curse" God? How is that even possible?
Well, think of one statement that was made about God during this time:
"God is dead."
Then there's the vitriolic statements about God by Richard Dawkins, in his book The God Delusion.
There was never a time in history in which God has been cursed so much - a product of the spiritual and political "darkness" that engulfed the kingdom of the beast, and that still lingers today.
Still, "they refused to repent of what they had done". These plagues are brought upon the kingdom of the beast because of what the beast had done to God's people throughout its long rule.
Thus, while the people continue to accept the beast's mark, they are subject to its plagues. Collectively, they do not repent.
10-24-2007 01:12 AM
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Post: #120RE: Revelation, chapter by chapter
12 The sixth angel poured out his bowl on the great river Euphrates, and its water was dried up to prepare the way for the kings from the East.
We are reminded here that these plagues culminate in the judgement upon the mysterious city of "Babylon" - because the same thing happened to ancient Babylon!
In 539BC, Cyrus of Persia (the ancient "kings from the East", with the Medes) diverted the waters of the Euphrates river (in order to enter much more easily), and snuck into the city of Babylon while the rulers were feasting, the guards were asleep, and the gates were left open. Babylon was overthrown in one night! It had been "weighed on the scales and found wanting". (Daniel 5:27)
It is this event that is being alluded to in the "sixth bowl" - the drying up of the Euphrates, to prepare the way for "the kings from the East".
However, since we are not talking about the ancient city of Babylon anymore, but the mysterious "Babylon the Great" - which we have yet to formally identify - then we can also take "the Euphrates" and "the kings from the East" to be symbols. In fact, in the next chapter, Babylon is described as sitting on "many waters", which are interpreted by the angel as meaning "peoples, multitudes, nations and languages".
So, just as the literal Euphrates water served as a protection for ancient Babylon, the water of the Euphrates drying up is a fitting symbol of the protection for "Babylon the Great" draining away, particularly in terms of ""peoples, multitudes, nations and languages" who will support her.
Does this mean she becomes depopulated? No, because right up until the end,
In her heart she boasts,
‘I sit as queen; I am not a widow,
and I will never mourn.’ (Rev 18:7)
This was also true of ancient Babylon. Even while Cyrus was at the door, king Belshazzar was having a banquet! And not only that, they were using the utensils of God's temple:
"So they brought in the gold goblets that had been taken from the temple of God in Jerusalem, and the king and his nobles, his wives and his concubines drank from them. As they drank the wine, they praised the gods of gold and silver, of bronze, iron, wood and stone." (Daniel 5:3,4)
So then, right up until its destruction, Babylon the Great feels she sits as queen, never to know mourning - almost completely oblivious to the signs of her downfall!
It is quite intriguing that, even while having physical power removed from it in 1870 (when Rome once again became the capital of a united Italy), until it controlled virtually no territory at all, in that very same year the Papacy introduced the doctrine of the infallibility of the Pope!
That sounds to me like arrogance in the extreme!
For the Church that ruled over much of Europe for over 1,000 years, it's physical protection has certainly drained away.
In terms of numbers, the Catholic Church boasts over a billion members (a thousand million) - the largest single Christian denomination. However, we only have to look at the world today to see that the Church has lost much of its moral authority over people.
16:13 Then I saw three evil spirits that looked like frogs; they came out of the mouth of the dragon, out of the mouth of the beast and out of the mouth of the false prophet. 14 They are spirits of demons performing miraculous signs, and they go out to the kings of the whole world, to gather them for the battle on the great day of God Almighty.
Between the sixth seals and trumpets, we saw a kind of interlude - in the first instance, one that represented (in my opinion) time to allow Jewish Christians to escape from Jerusalem, and in the second one, to allow for the angel with the opened scroll to come down.
Now, in the seven last plagues, there appears to be another interlude between the 6th and 7th plagues. However, during this period, the demons are hard at work.
The final showdown with God is approaching. John sees "three evil spirits that looked like frogs". As a Jew himself, John would have recognized a frog as an unclean animal under the Law covenant.
They come "out of the mouth of the dragon, out of the mouth of the beast and out of the mouth of the false prophet."
The identities of the dragon and the beast are known to us, but the "false prophet" is new - except that the second wild beast has already been described in terms of a false prophet: it had horn like a lamb, with the ability to deceive and to symbolically call fire from heaven.
The second beast was the Roman state with the Church and Papacy at its head - the ultimate false prophet.
The "evil spirits" that come out of their mouths are identified as "spirits of demons performing miraculous signs".
We shouldn't be surprised that demons can do this. For instance, some early Church writers noted that the pagan idols were sometimes noted to perform miracles. When these idols were eventually converted into saints by the Church, sometimes these too would perform miracles!
However, the particular miraculous signs performed here are not necessarily for public consumption, because John says that these demons "go out to the kings of the whole world".
These "miraculous signs" are for the benefit of the world's kings - with the purpose of gathering them "for the battle on the great day of God Almighty."
So then, it may be more difficult to identify precisely what these "miraculous signs" are, because we are not the intended audience. However, their overall purpose is to gather the world's kings together in opposition to God.
Since the end of World War II, we have seen several attempts to unite the world. Most notably is the United Nations, which most nations on earth are members - even the Vatican has "observer" status.
In Europe, what could probably be described as the "heart of the beast", after suffering the devastations of World Wars I and II, they put aside their old difference to become 27 (to date) semi-united states, most with a single currency!
The political divide between East and West vanished "miraculously" almost overnight in 1989 with the fall of the Berlin wall - and several previously ironclad Communist regimes in Europe collapsed, sweeping democracy in its place.
We should note how major events like the fall of the Berlin Wall can shape the world. For instance, the attack on the World Trade Center on September 11th, 2001 startled Americans and the world, and led (directly or indirectly) to the wars in Afghanistan and Iraq.
So major shifts in the world can be brought about by events such as a 9/11, or the fall of the Berlin Wall.
However, in order to get the kings of the earth to be prepared to fight God, they need to be brought to the stage where they believe God is their enemy.
Demons are notorious for being liars and deceivers - just like their father, Satan. So this would require a great deception - after all, who in their right mind would want to take on God?
There is, however, one particular scenario which has actually been discussed by some world leaders, that might qualify - namely, an otherworldly threat!
Ever since the teaching of evolution began to grip the schools, people have contemplated the possibility of life on other planets - and with it, the possible threat that might come from such life. Orson Welles first tested the public's reaction to such a threat in his 1938 broadcast, "The War Of The Worlds" - which caused mass panic!
Not long after, a mysterious crash in Roswell in 1947 caused sensation - and the idea of UFO's really kicked off. Today, a good percentage of the population believe in the existence of extraterrestials.
Even world rulers have discussed the one thing that would unite them - the "threat" from outer space.
It is certainly intriguing that the evil spirits John saw "looked like frogs", for the aliens that people describe are often described as reptilians!
I really have no idea whether this is what John was alluding to or not, but the fact of the matter is: something (namely demons) will be driving the kings of the earth to unite against what they perceive to be a common enemy, which turns out to be God himself.
Clearly this cannot be done overnight, but I believe we are seeing the gradual fulfillment of this, and that's why we do need to pay attention to what's happening around us - but with the knowledge of where it's all leading to.
10-26-2007 12:11 AM
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Post: #122RE: Revelation, chapter by chapter
16:15“Behold, I come like a thief! Blessed is he who stays awake and keeps his clothes with him, so that he may not go naked and be shamefully exposed.”
This is a timely caution by Jesus, which in my opinion reinforces the previous idea that the seven last plagues stretch out over quite a long period of time. Otherwise, if we knew the length of their duration, why the need to stay awake?
I do believe that Jesus "came" in the 1st century, but only against the city of Jerusalem - it was God's judgement against that city, but it was not the world's judgement at that time - nor did Jesus come against the whole world then.
However, for the Christian living in Jerusalem, they needed to stay awake, because they didn't know specifically when Jerusalem was to fall. Jesus said it would come upon "this generation" - which could have meant 3 years, 20 years, 40 years... they didn't know.
In reality, it was about 33 years from the time he uttered his warnings that the Romans came against Jerusalem, in 66. That was the signal for Christians to flee.
Just a short time afterwards, it became extremely difficult to flee, because civil war broke out in the city, and any who tried to escape were viewed as deserting to the Romans, and were put to death.
Now, as we near the end of the last plagues, Jesus warns us that he will "come like a thief".
This is quite sobering, because many Christians are under the belief that much still has to happen - an Antichrist, a rebuilt Jewish temple, a 7 year tribulation.
Unfortunately, if my interpretation of Revelation is anywhere close to being correct, they are mistaken, and may as Christians be caught off guard by actual events - because my interpretation implies we are at the time between the 6th and the 7th last plagues!
So when these events come to their finality, many Christians may find themselves "naked and... shamefully exposed".
Personally, I don't mind being wrong about anything... but it's helpful to at least be aware of other people's views and interpretations. I've held several views about Revelation in the past, including the Witness view, and the Futurist view (i.e. that it's all still to come).
Still, I've been amazed at how well the previous plagues seem to fit in with the modern history of the world... but I guess we'll have to see how that turns out, eh?
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