Posted: Thu Dec 31, 2009 2:29 am Post subject: earthly resurrection
In his statement "The meek will inherit the earth," Jesus was actually quoting from Psalm 37:11 which state emphatically that "the meek will inherit the earth." Also, verse 29 goes on to emphasize this with the words that "the righteous will possess the earth and reside 'forever' upon it."
To do this requires an earthly resurrection of 'all' mankind during the Sabbath Millennium whereby those who prove faithful at the end of this period, will receive everlasting life as perfect hmans on the earth as originally intended by our Grand Creator.
As I have mention in earlier posts, the heavenly anointed is and addition to the Creator's original plan due to the episode in Eden. If Adam and Eve had not disobeyed, there would be no heavenly anointed needed to replace the corrupt Cherubic Government and the world would not be in the mess it is today!
Incidentally, those alive on the earth as the heavenly kingdom establishes its influence over the earthly realm; will pass straight into the Sabbath Millennium with the chance of everlasting life on earth at the end of it. So the statement: "Millions now living will never die!" suddenly become reality!
Alexander _________________ YHWH is my God and Jesus is my Lord
I believe that Alexander's post is generally correct except for the following points;
Alexander said,
>>As I have mention in earlier posts, the heavenly anointed is and addition to the Creator's original plan due to the episode in Eden.<<
I believe this is scripturally wrong, & I believe that it was a part of "God's original plan" for mankind as bourne out by, Ephesians 1;3-11,
"3 Praise be to the God and Father of our Lord Jesus Christ, who has blessed us in the heavenly realms with every spiritual blessing in Christ.
4 For he chose us in him before the creation of the world to be holy and blameless in his sight. In love
5 he predestined us to be adopted as his sons through Jesus Christ, in accordance with his pleasure and will—
6 to the praise of his glorious grace, which he has freely given us in the One he loves.
7 In him we have redemption through his blood, the forgiveness of sins, in accordance with the riches of God’s grace
8 that he lavished on us with all wisdom and understanding.
9 And hed made known to us the mystery of his will according to his good pleasure, which he purposed in Christ,
10 to be put into effect when the times will have reached their fulfillment—to bring all things in heaven and on earth together under one head, even Christ.
11 In him we were also chosen, having been predestined according to the plan of him who works out everything in conformity with the purpose of his will,
12 in order that we, who were the first to hope in Christ, might be for the praise of his glory."
Notice V4 says that "He chose us before the creation of the world." This is refering to the world of mankind that began with the creation of Adam & Eve.
Then this quote from Alexander;
>>If Adam and Eve had not disobeyed, there would be no heavenly anointed needed to replace the corrupt Cherubic Government and the world would not be in the mess it is today!<<
The predestination of the christian church, the "bride of Christ," as we just read, "before the creation of the world," was in fact, before Adam was created. So how could the "church, saints," be a replacement for "the corrupt Cherubic Government?"
Another point why this is incorrect, is that the bride class will rule as "kings & priests" on thrones with our Lord Jesus, over the world of resurrected ones, during the millennium.
The purpose for this is to help resurrected mankind, back to perfection & to instruct them as to God's way, this is according to Jeremiah 31;34;
"34No longer will a man teach his neighbor, or a man his brother, saying, ‘Know the Lord,’ because they will all know me, from the least of them to the greatest,” declares the Lord. “For I will forgive their wickedness and will remember their sins no more.”
In fact I will ask the question, "Was there ever a "Cherubic Government?"
The bible only mentions God's heavenly Kingdom, as the universal government, of which "the Morning Star," (who later became Satan) was but one member among many others.
Then Alexanjder said;
>>Incidentally, those alive on the earth as the heavenly kingdom establishes its influence over the earthly realm; will pass straight into the Sabbath Millennium with the chance of everlasting life on earth at the end of it. So the statement: "Millions now living will never die!" suddenly become reality!<<
Unles we follow JW theology, this may not be correct, as I am not aware of there being any scriptural proof to this effect.
As our Lord Jesus died for mankind, for them to benefit from the Ransom Sacrifice, ALL mankind must die to avail themselves of the free gift of Christ's sin atoning sacrifice. (this is with the exception of the saints who are living at His return, & are changed in the twinkling of an eye)
Having said that, it is possible that there may not be any earthly survivors of the battle of Armageddon, contrary to popular belief.
Remember, it is only those being selected for the heavenly kingdom, who are now being called.
Any thoughts?
WCL, Ion _________________ "By this all men will know that you are My disciples, if you have love for one another."
Last edited by humbleservant on Mon Jan 04, 2010 6:13 am; edited 1 time in total
I have to speak in behalf of truth,
and for the sake of truth .
In any question / issue we have,
firstly we need to go to Jesus for answer
because Father had decided that the teaching His Son had taught us is, or it forms the basis for truth. Matthew 17:5 / John 1:17b.
Jesus said regarding God's word ( including the Old Testament ) that it is truth
" Your word is truth" .. John 17:17
It is also written that God doesn't change. .. Malachi 3:6
6. For I, Jehovah, change not;
Now we go to creation account and see that Jehovah has declared that His work of creation - regarding earth and all life upon it - was good
Genesis 1
31. And God saw everything that he had made, and, behold,
it was very good.
And there was evening and there was morning, the sixth day.
The fact that "it was very good" means that God's purpose for earth , which was realised now, remains unchangeable !
Now , while the word or expression "resurrection" doesn't appear too often in the Old testament , the action itself of "resurrection" was implied , (and it came trough Jesus ) in order for the original purpose to remain !
Jesus is clear about that !
Luke 20
37. But that the dead are raised, even Moses showed, in the place concerning the Bush,
when he calleth the Lord the God of Abraham, and the God of Isaac, and the God of Jacob.
38. Now he is not the God of the dead, but of the living: for all live unto him.
.............
Quote:
"As our Lord Jesus died for mankind, for them to benefit from the Ransom Sacrifice, ALL mankind must die to avail themselves of the free gift of
Christ's sin atoning sacrifice.
.......................................................
Having said that, it is possible that there may not be any earthly survivors of the battle of Armageddon, contrary to popular belief."
Now , let us see the truth
Jesus words are expriming clearly the fact , that there is the posibility to pass from "death to life" without to die litterally :
John 5:
24. Verily, verily, I say unto you, He that heareth my word,
and believeth him that sent me, hath eternal life,
and cometh not into judgment,
but hath passed out of death into life.
These words give the posibility and the hope for those who arrive alive at the Armaggedon-time to continue their life on earth endless .
..............................
Quote:
"Alexander said,
>>As I have mention in earlier posts, the heavenly anointed is and addition to the Creator's original plan due to the episode in Eden.<<
I believe this is scripturally wrong, & I believe that it was a part of "God's original plan" for mankind as bourne out by, Ephesians 1;3-11,
....
The predestination of the christian church, the "bride of Christ," as we just read, "before the creation of the world," was in fact, before Adam was created.
"
..................................
The idea here it is that God have had an "original plan" which included the predestination of the "church of Christ" , or his "bride" before the creation of the earth or of the humankind (world) .
Well , if the reality would be so , that means/includes that the Creator has predestined the first family/couple of men to fail !
If true , that would prove that God is unjust!
God created Adam with the possibility to manifest "free will"
To have free will includes (allways) two possibilities :
-- to obey God
-- to obey not God
( see here Deuteronomy 30:15 )
A "previous man's creation" Plan of God for the "churh of Christ" would eliminate man's free will !
Well, let us see how God's way of thinking actually is (as shown later regarding His people )
Isaiah 63:
8. For he said,
Surely, they are my people, children that will not deal falsely:
so he was their Saviour.
But where does the confusion comes from ?
Let's read Paul's words in Ephesians 1
4. For he chose us in him before the creation of the world to be holy and blameless in his sight. In love
5. he predestined us to be adopted as his sons through Jesus Christ, in accordance with his pleasure and will—
The problem cosists in Paul's words "before the creation of the world"
here arise two questions :
-- what does the word "world" means ?
-- when does the creation of the world was ?
In order to find the meaning for "word" we have to go to Jesus for answer .
It is obvious the fact that the human languages are limited , and it is an issue the fact to put God's truth in human's words/languages , so , it requires from God's part to use certain words in other meanings than the simple literal sense used by men.
While "world" means firstly "all humankind", Adam's descendents,
we see in Jesus words another sense of it
John 17
11. And I am no more in the world,
and these are in the world, and I come to thee...
14. I have given them thy word; and the world hated them,
because they are not of the world, even as I am not of the world.
15. I pray not that thou shouldest take them from the world, but that thou shouldest keep them from the evil one.
16. They are not of the world even as I am not of the world.
So, while Jesus followers "are in the world" , they "are not of the world" .
...while they are a part of the humankind , they are NOT living accordingly to the "way this corrupted/sinful humankind" are living !
The apostle Paul got the meaning for the "world" when he said to Colossians 1
13. who delivered us out of the power of darkness(this world) ,
and translated us into the kingdom of the Son of his love;
and apostle Peter says in 1 Peter 1
18. knowing that ye were redeemed, not with corruptible things, with silver or gold,
from your vain manner of life (of this world ) handed down from your fathers;
............................
Now , the question is , to what "world" was Paul referring to in his epistle to Ephesians ?
let us read it again
4. For he chose us in him before the creation of the world to be holy and blameless in his sight.
The truth is as it follows :
-- originally God created a "righteus world" by creating Adam in a "good state" and telling him to keep His commandment
-- that world became corrupted when the one becomed God's Oposer could persuade Adam to break down God's commandment
"this present world" or "way of living" did not originated from God , but from his Oposer !
--- at this point God is making first promising (at Genesis 3:15)
- that a "seed" will be brought into existence , which implies that through him a new world will be made " - a new arrangement - to replace the corrupted one ,
- and further , God is promising to his Oposer (represented by the serpent) that he will be crushed by the Seed ,
which implies that both he and his world (arrangement and wicked way of living ) will be put to end .
Furthermore , when does "the new promised world" will be established ?
The Seed , Jesus has overcome the world at His death ,
and then his Father has ressurected him , and has exalted him and enthroned him , and by all this actions the Kingdom was "established" in Heavens -- this way the "world" (the new arrangement where the righteousness dwells/ God's will is done ) made by God comes into existence !
So the apostles, who are the "foundation stones" of the Chrurch,
were chosen before the foundation of the world (the world made by God ),
because they were chosen, taken out from this world and given to Jesus Christ before the world's foundation was laid !
=============
I hope the way I could put into english my thoughts is understandeable .
I pray YHWH and His Son Jesus Christ to help those thirsty for truth
to understand these things !
I will answer your post, one point at a time, to try to keep it simple.
Firstly we MUST realize that the NT was written primarily to the church, the saints, those chosen for heavenly life.
You said;
>>Now , let us see the truth
Jesus words are expriming clearly the fact , that there is the posibility to pass from "death to life" without to die litterally :
John 5:
24. Verily, verily, I say unto you, He that heareth my word,
and believeth him that sent me, hath eternal life,
and cometh not into judgment,
but hath passed out of death into life.
These words give the posibility and the hope for those who arrive alive at the Armaggedon-time to continue their life on earth endless .<<
This verse from John 5, was written to the living members of the church in the first century. It is easy to understand, that once a person consecrates to the Lord & is then baptized & anointed with the Holy Spirit, they then become dead to their former selves, (the old man/old creature) & are then spirit begotten as the "new creature" (new man).
This becomes a symbolic death (while still alive in the flesh) to their former life course, & the start of their new life course, (while still in the flesh) as part of the heavenly phase of the kingdom, in readiness to meet the Lord in the air.
I do not believe that this verse has a connection with Armageddon survivors on the earth.
To be continued....
WCL,
Ion _________________ "By this all men will know that you are My disciples, if you have love for one another."
With regards to "predestination," as spoken of in the bible. Please understand that this is not viewed as the world's understanding of the word.
I will try to explain it very simply;
Before Adam was created God knew that Adam might fail this simple test of obedience, however, Adam was given the free will to choose.
Please bear in mind at this stage, there was not a need for a body of faithfull ones to be "called" from among mankind to the heavens. This action on God's part (with Adam), does not make Him unjust, His justice is proven by Him having the "Divine Plan" already in place for the saving of the human race.
As to the predestination of the church, when one is chosen & called, it would be unjust of God to call one who He knows will fail. This then means that unless something dreadfull happens, (to commit the unforgivable sin), it is not possible for one who is called & chosen to fail.
In the times of the Apostles, there were some who were disfellowshipped, then later reinstated back into the church, remember all these were anointed brethren.
There is another point on this also, when one is chosen & called, they still have the free will to accept, or reject the call.
True, we are still sinners & make mistakes due to this, but this is where the ransoming blood of our elder brother Christ, will cover our unintentional sins.
Your next point;
>>Now , the question is , to what "world" was Paul referring to in his epistle to Ephesians ?<<
You have a good thought concerning this, but I cannot see the world as spoken of in Ephesians 1, as being any other than either before Adam was created, or straight after his fall at the latest.
The world (Kingdom) that you speak of that came into being at the time of Jesus death & resurrection, is a heavenly spiritual one, not earthly, so I could not agree with you about that.
I understand that you are of the view that the Great multitude of Rev.7;9-17, are Armageddon survivors who go through into the new earth, is that right? If so, perhaps we should discuss that next.
WCL, Ion _________________ "By this all men will know that you are My disciples, if you have love for one another."
I will answer your post, one point at a time, to try to keep it simple.
Firstly we MUST realize that the NT was written primarily to the church, the saints, those chosen for heavenly life.
You said;
>>Now , let us see the truth
Jesus words are expriming clearly the fact , that there is the posibility to pass from "death to life" without to die litterally :
John 5:
24. Verily, verily, I say unto you, He that heareth my word,
and believeth him that sent me, hath eternal life,
and cometh not into judgment,
but hath passed out of death into life.
These words give the posibility and the hope for those who arrive alive at the Armaggedon-time to continue their life on earth endless .<<
This verse from John 5, was written to the living members of the church in the first century. It is easy to understand, that once a person consecrates to the Lord & is then baptized & anointed with the Holy Spirit, they then become dead to their former selves, (the old man/old creature) & are then spirit begotten as the "new creature" (new man).
This becomes a symbolic death (while still alive in the flesh) to their former life course, & the start of their new life course, (while still in the flesh) as part of the heavenly phase of the kingdom, in readiness to meet the Lord in the air.
I do not believe that this verse has a connection with Armageddon survivors on the earth.
To be continued....
WCL,
Ion
I know and I agree that the verse quoted by me have a spiritual meaning ,
that is,
a man is "death" spiritually because he has God's wrath /exprimed through the "judicial sentence"-you will die" (inherited from Adam)
-- when a man comes to Jesus and believe in him God's wrath upon that man ceases and he became "alive in Christ" or spiritually alive and he comes out/escape from God's wrath
John 3
36. Whoever believes in the Son has eternal life,
but whoever rejects the Son will not see life,
for God's wrath remains on him."
exactly these words of Jesus do open the posibility for those believing in Christ and arrived at the final point , to pass "alive" that point :
both those with "heavenly hope" - being "changed in the twinkling of an eye" (without litterally death)
as those with earthly perspective - being passed alive ..
Thanks for your reply. I do understand what you mean, as this is what I believed for over 50 years as a JW.
I have proven for myself through the bible & the Hebrew & Greek bible dictionaries, that those spoken of at Rev. 7;9-17, the "great crowd," are not an earthly class, but will actually be raised to heavenly, spiritual life.
It's all in the wording of the Greek language.
I would not say that "nobody" will pass through Armageddon, but that it is not as we have been taught by the WTS.
Jesus also gave the parable of the wedding feast at Matthew 22;1-14.
V 14 says, "For many are invited, but few are chosen.” My understanding of this is slightly different to most BS's, as I see the Lord calling a large number, (the great crowd) then out of these ones choosing who will be part of the "bride class," the 144,000, with the remainder being the "brides maids (the brides attendants).
WCL,
Ion _________________ "By this all men will know that you are My disciples, if you have love for one another."
As regard myself , I have said what I have been taught , and I do not continue in this discussion , for two main reasons
-- I have not the necessary time to go on , because any discussion on foreign language (which I dont master ) takes a lot of my time , and I need my time for more important things/acts
-- I don't like endless discussions .
thank you very much,
and also I thank to Joyfull because I can exprime my thoughts on her forum .
I need to make a correction to what my view was as I stated previously.
With regard to Armageddon survivors, I have been having deep discussions with some BS's here in Australia recently, & have been shown that there will be a lot of Armageddon survivors, from all walks of life.
The view as put forth by the WTS/JW's, I still cannot agree with, as they say that they are the only ones to survive. God does not deal with any organization or church body, since the destruction of Jerusalem in 70 AD. Since this time, God has been dealing with people on an individual basis, not as a nation or organization.
There will be a large number of survivors that will pass through Armageddon & into the millennium. These, I believe will be made up of people from all sectors of society, not because they believe in God, but because they have not been destroyed when God's vengeance is brought against Satan's systems & his supporters.
The only ones who will be "saved," guaranteed safety, are those who make up Jesus brothers, those who are part of the heavenly kingdom arrangement. These include the 144,000 & the great crowd/multitude. As the scriptures show, the remaining ones of these will be taken up to heaven, just prior to the Battle of Armageddon commencing.
Please accept my apology for my previous error of statement.
Christian love,
Ion _________________ "By this all men will know that you are My disciples, if you have love for one another."
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