joyful
Joined: 30 Aug 2007
Posts: 1376
Location: texas
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 Posted: Mon May 18, 2009 8:42 pm Post subject: trinity questions |
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Please answer the following questions, and PLEASE give Scripture reference to support your answers:
[list=1][*]Before Jesus was born of the virgin Mary, did he exist? If so, who was he?
Jesus existed with the only true God before he became flesh, having the glory of celestial body before the world of mankind was made. (John 1:1,2,10,14; 17:3,5; 1 Corinthians 15:40) While in the days of his flesh, having the glory of the terrestrial body (1 Corinthians 15:40; Hebrews 2:9; 5:7; 10:5), he was the same person 'who' he was before he became flesh. His being changed from the glory that he had with his father to the human glory did not change "who" he was, and his being raised from the dead as a spirit being (1 Peter 3:1 did not change "who" he was and "who" he is. Jesus is still the same person "who" was before he became flesh, and he is the still the same person "who" he was while he was in the days of his flesh. We are not given any scriptural reason to think that his being changed from one glory to another glory changed "who" Jesus was and is.
[*]Did Jesus exist simultaneously with God the Father in eternity past, or was he created?
The partitive genitive usage as firstborn of God's creation (Colossians 1:15), designates Jesus as a creation, and therefore Jesus did have a beginning.
Colossians 1:15 (King James Version)
15Who is the image of the invisible God, the firstborn of every creature:
[*]Why is Jesus Christ and God the Father called the beginning and the end, the alpha and omega?
We find the phrase -- Alpha and Omega, the beginning and the end -- in Revelation 1:8; 21:6; 22:13 -- all three of which refer to Yahweh, the God and Father of Jesus. These phrases are not used of Jesus.
[*]Is God Almighty, Lord of lords and King of Kings? If not, is he Lord? Is he King?
Is God Almighty, Lord of lords and King of Kings? If not, is he Lord? Is he King?
Yahweh is spoken of a "Lord of lords" in Deuteronomy 10:17 and Psalm 136:3. The expression, "lord of lords" simply signifies one who is "lord" over others who are also "lords". In the case of Yahweh, however, he is the "Supreme" Lord who is lord over others who are also lords.
However, any one who is a Lord over others who are also lords can hold the title "Lord of lords." Another way of expressing "Lord of lords" is "overlord."
http://dictionary.reference.com/browse/overlord
Yes, there can be two and even many who can hold the title of "Lord of lords". It is similar to the title "King of kings." Anyone who is a king over others who are also kings can hold the title "King of kings."
Artaxerxes, king of kings, to Ezra the priest, the scribe of the law of the God of heaven, perfect and so forth. -- Ezra 7:12, World English
For thus says the Lord Yahweh: Behold, I will bring on Tyre Nebuchadrezzar king of Babylon, king of kings, from the north, with horses, and with chariots, and with horsemen, and a company, and much people. -- Ezekiel 26:7, World English.
You, O king, are king of kings, to whom the God of heaven has given the kingdom, the power, and the strength, and the glory.-- Daniel 2:37, World English
Jesus is made "lord" by Yahweh, the only true God; He is made lord over the overcomers who also become lords (rulers) and kings, and thus he has the title "Lord of lords" and "King of kings". -- Psalm 2:6,8; Daniel 7:21,27; Acts 2:38; Ephesians 1:22; 2 Timothy 2:12; Hebrews 1:9; Revelation 3:21; 5:10; 20:6.
In the Bible, however, only the Most High, Yahweh, holds the title "God of gods". (Deuteronomy 10:17; Psalm 136:2; Daniel 2:47: 11:36) Yahweh is God over others who are "gods", especially the "angels" (Psalm 8:5; Hebrews 2:7) and also the "gods" spoken of in Psalm 82:1,6; John 10:34,35.
The term "lord", of itself, is a more general term, and can be applied to many people who are in some way a ruler, teacher, etc, and even a more general way as respect for a man, such as with the meaning of "sir", or "mister".
Hebrew words for "lord":
Adon:
http://www.biblestudytools.com/Lexicons/OldTestamentHebrew/heb.cgi?number=0113
Adonai:
http://www.biblestudytools.com/Lexicons/OldTestamentHebrew/heb.cgi?number=0136
Baal:
http://www.biblestudytools.com/Lexicons/OldTestamentHebrew/heb.cgi?number=01168
Mare':
http://www.biblestudytools.com/Lexicons/OldTestamentHebrew/heb.cgi?number=04756
Ceren:
http://www.biblestudytools.com/Lexicons/OldTestamentHebrew/heb.cgi?number=05633
Rab:
http://www.biblestudytools.com/Lexicons/OldTestamentHebrew/heb.cgi?number=07229
If these words are used in the New Testament, they are usually rendered under forms of the word Kurios. The problem in the New Testament, however, is that usually, in the manuscripts as we have them, the holy name of God been changed to forms of the word Kurios, causing a confusion of the word "Kurios" with the holy name. In reality, the holy name of God does not mean the same thing as Kurios, and Yahweh never authorized anyone to change his name to Kurios. Nevertheless, many have misused this in their efforts to make the claim that Jesus is Yahweh.
[*]Why did Thomas call Jesus Christ, "My Lord, and my God." after he believed?
The scriptures do not tell us directly why Thomas said the words. Of course, most trinitarians and oneness believers (as well as some others who wish to believe that Jesus is Yahweh) wish think that Thomas was calling Jesus his God in the sense that would lead one to think that Jesus is Yahweh, the God of Abraham, Isaac and Jacob. -- Exodus 3:15; Matthew 22:32; Mark 12:26; Luke 20:37; Acts 3:13.
However, it is not clear from the Greek construction of his words that he meant to call Jesus "my God"; thus, many believe that he first referred to Jesus as "my Lord" and then he added to that in reference to the Father, "my God."
If Thomas was actually referring to Jesus as 'my God', the default reasoning should be that he was referring to Jesus as his mighty ruler, in accordance with such usage in the Old Testament, and as confirmed by Jesus in John 10:34,35.
Whatever Thomas meant by the expression, he certainly was not setting a precedent for the NT writers, since we do not find any general application such an expression toward Jesus in the New Testament. Indeed, if Thomas was indeed referring to Jesus as "my God", this is the only time such an expression is given toward Jesus in the whole Bible.
On the other hand, the rule of the New Testament is to differentiate between Jesus and the God of Abraham, Isaac and Jacob, and the God of prophets is also usually presented as Jesus' God.
[*]Why did Isaiah prophesy that John the baptist would prepare the way of Jehovah God?Why did Isaiah prophesy that John the baptist would prepare the way of Jehovah God?
No, Isaiah did not prophesy that John the Baptist would prepare the way of Jehovah God. This is a mistake that even many Bible Students make when they read the prophecy in Isaiah 40:3. We need to read the prophecy more carefully as well as how the prophecy is stated to have been fulfilled in the New Testament.
What does the prophecy actually say? "The voice of one who cries, Prepare you in the wilderness the way of Yahweh; make level in the desert a highway for our God." (World English) The application to John the Baptist is toward the "one" who cries, not to the "you" who are told to prepare the way of Yahweh. In the Hebrew, the expression "Prepare you" is plural, denoting more than one person. John the Baptist was only one person; he was not more than one person. It is "the voice of one who cries" that is applied to John the Baptist. It is the people of Israel who are being told to prepare the way of Yahweh. How was this fulfilled? John the Baptist did not actually say, Prepare you in the wilderness the way of Yahweh. His actual message to the people was that of repentance toward Yahweh, and preformed baptisms in symbol of that repentance. The "way" of Yahweh is actually "way" that the people were walking before Yahweh. They were walking in disobedience of the Law that Yahweh had given to them. For that path to be made straight [justified, righteous] required their repentance before the face of Yahweh, in obedience to the Law Covenant that they were born under.
Of course, their repentance and the making the way straight was actually only typical and demonstrated the failure of such repentance, since they could not make themselves truly justified, straight, by their own works through the Law. (Galatians 2:16,21; 3:10-12,21; 5:4) Thus, the repentance taught the people of their need for the atoning sacrifice of Jesus that John pointed to, the sacrifice given to the world by Yahweh. -- Genesis 22:13,14; John 1:29,36; 3:16; Romans 3:32; Galatians 4:4; 1 John 4:9,10.
However, Zechariah stated concerning John: "And you, child, will be called a prophet of the Most High, For you will go before the face of the Lord [Yahweh] to make ready his ways, To give knowledge of salvation to his people by the remission of their sins." (Luke 1:76,77) Zechariah is evidently referencing Malachi 3:1:
"Behold, I send my messenger, and he will prepare the way before [in the face of] me; and the Lord, whom you seek, will suddenly come to his temple; and the messenger of the covenant, whom you desire, behold, he comes!" says Yahweh of hosts.
This prophecy is often also often misapplied, and Zechariah's words are thus misapplied, to make them appear to say that John the Baptist was to go before Jesus, and to prepare the ways of Jesus. Actually, Zechariah is saying that John the Baptist, as a prophet, goes before [the face of] Yahweh, and in the prophecy John the Baptist is said to be making Yahweh's "way(s)" straight. The application of this is still basically the same, since by his preaching of repentance before Yahweh, John the Baptist was indeed making Yahweh's ways straight, that is, he was, at least typically, making straight the crooked paths that the people had been traveling before Yahweh.
[*]Why did Isaiah prophesy that Jesus Christ will be born and be called Wonderful, Counsellor, The mighty God, The everlasting Father, The Prince of Peace?
Actually, I do not believe that Isaiah prophesied such, at least not in the manner that this is usually presented in almost all translations of Isaiah 9:6. As rendered in Jewish Publication Society translation, the prophesy states (this is Isaiah 9:5 in the JPS):
For a child is born unto us, a son is given unto us; and the government is upon his shoulder; and his name is called Pele-joez-el-gibbor-Abi-ad-sar-shalom;
In keeping with the singular "name", this is the only translation I know of that actually renders the name in a singular form. Almost all translations do not give it as a singular name, but split the singular name up so that it becomes a series of "names". This seems to be done for the purpose of trying to make it appear that the Messiah that is sent by God is God who sends the Messiah. In keeping with the Hebrew tradition, as a singular name, it is given the meaning: "Wonderful in counsel is God the Mighty, the everlasting Father, the Ruler of peace."
However, even assuming that Isaiah made a mistake in saying that it was a singular name, and that it actually was a series of names and that one of those names that was to be applied to Messiah is "Mighty God" (EL Gibbor), does this mean that Jesus is the God who gives Jesus as a son to Israel? No, since EL does not always refer to "God" in the sense of the the Might of the universe. In keeping with similar translation in most translations of Ezkiel 32:21, and other general usages of forms of the Hebrew word EL, and in keeping with the context which clearly distinguishes Yahweh from the one who he is giving, EL GIBBOR in Isaiah 9:6 could be understood as "a strong one amongst the mighty", or "a strong one of might", or something similar.
Further assuming that the prophecy was meant to be understood as "names", and not a singular name, we might also consider the expression render "everlasting father". Some trinitarians seem to focus on the word "everlasting", or "eternity", and in some vague manner read into this word that Jesus lives in eternity outside of time, and thus was never created. The Hebrew word `ad, however, of itself, does not carry such a meaning as ascribed by some of our trinitarian neighbors. The idea that there is something in the expression that would mean that Jesus was uncreated has to be imagined, assumed, added to and read into the prophecy. What the trinitarian, then, actually offers as proof is what they have imagined and assumed, not what the scripture actually says. However, I have never seen a good explanation from any trinitarian as to how Jesus can be the such an everlasting father from all eternity past if Jesus is not the Father, as they claim.
While, as stated before, I do not believe that the phrase "everlasting father" was meant to be a name of Jesus, Jesus does become the "everlasting father" to the human race by becoming the last Adam, through whom the human race receives regeneration. -- Matthew 19:28; 1 Corinthians 15:21,22,45; Romans 5:12-19.
For further study:
http://godandson.reslight.net/?p=26
http://godandson.reslight.net/?p=82
http://godandson.reslight.net/?p=78
http://reslight.net/forum/index.php/topic,405.0.html
http://notrinity.blogspot.com/2008/07/isaiah-96.html
http://notrinity.blogspot.com/2009/01/isa9-6.html
Why did Isaiah prophesy that Jesus Christ will be born and his name will be called "God with us"?
Isaiah 7:14 - Therefore [Yahweh]* himself will give you a sign: behold, a virgin shall conceive, and bear a son, and shall call his name Immanuel.
=====
*The Great Isaiah Scroll as the holy name here.
We should note that the prophecy states that Yahweh would give this "sign", not that Yahweh would be this sign. Yahweh did indeed, through his holy spirit, prepare the body of Jesus in the womb of Mary, who at that time was a virgin. (Hebrews 10:5; Matthew 1:20) Because the only true God was with Jesus, the only true God was indeed with 'us' through Jesus, and, by means of Jesus' sacrifice, the God of Jesus can be "with" us today through Jesus. -- John 8:29; 10:32; 16:32; 14:10,11,23; John 17:1,3; Acts 10:38; 2 Corinthians 5:18; 1 John 4:4.
Isaiah 8:8 - and it shall sweep onward into Judah; it shall overflow and pass through; it shall reach even to the neck; and the stretching out of its wings shall fill the breadth of your land, Immanuel.
I quote from Frank Shallieu's book on Isaiah for Isaiah 8:8:
Quote
King Sennacherib was likened to a tremendous bird such as an eagle or a vulture. So large was the bird that “the stretching out of his wings shall fill the breadth of thy [Immanuel’s] land.” To those hearing the prophecy in Isaiah’s day, “Immanuel” was Judah. The land of Judah was pictured as a person, the neck or head being Jerusalem. “Immanuel” means “God is with us.” Judah was delivered from Sennacherib not by battle instruments but by the Lord’s destroying angel in one night. When there were so many corpses on the ground and Judah had not defended itself, the people said, “God is with us!” They thought, “God has protected His treasured land, His covenant people, from the threatening enemy.” This
superficial natural picture must be understood in order to understand the spiritual.
Many believe that Isaiah 8:8 refers to Jesus, and the land of Judah is being spoken of as Messiah's land, using the name "Immanuel" of the Messiah that was to be sent by Yahweh.
Isaiah 8:10 - Take counsel together, and it shall be brought to nothing; speak the word, and it shall not stand: for God is with us.
Most translators give us the translation of "Immanuel" in this verse as "God is with us," referring to the God of Abraham, Isaac and Jacob as being with Judah. In verse 8 Judah (or Jesus) is referred to as Immanuel, but in verse 8 the expression of that name, in effect, declares that God is with the people of Judah.
Matthew 1:23 - "Behold, the virgin shall be with child, and shall bring forth a son. They shall call his name Immanuel;" which is, being interpreted, "God with us."
Actually, what the scriptures say is that they shall call his name, Immanuel, and that Immanuel means "God with us." Many like to ignore the "name" part, however, and wish to think of it as saying that Jesus is "God with us", which is not what any of the scriptures say. A name given that has "God" it in it as the subject does not mean the person who bears such a name is God. Isaiah prophesied that the Messiah would be called by that name "Immanuel" because through the Messiah sent by Yahweh "God is with us". This does not mean that the Messiah sent by Yahweh is Yahweh who sent the Messiah.
There are many names given to people and things in the Bible that contain phrase concerning God similar to the way Immanuel is applied to the Messiah sent by the only true God. For instance, Abraham called a place "Yahweh-Jireh" (Genesis 22:14), which means, Yahweh will provide. Does that mean that the place that is called by that name is Yahweh Himself? Certainly not! Additionally, let us consider the name Jehu; in Hebrew, this name means "He is Yah" or "Yah is He." Does that mean the man Jehu is, in reality, Yahweh? Likewise with the name Eliathath, which means "God has come". Are we to think that Eliathath is God Almighty because of the name given to him? Other names could also be cited that could be interpreted in some manner that would make the bearer of the name Yahweh, if one were follow the same logic as many would apply to Matthew 1:23.
See also:
http://godandson.reslight.net/god-with-us.html
Isaiah 7:14 - Therefore [Yahweh]* himself will give you a sign: behold, a virgin shall conceive, and bear a son, and shall call his name Immanuel.
=====
*The Great Isaiah Scroll as the holy name here.
We should note that the prophecy states that Yahweh would give this "sign", not that Yahweh would be this sign. Yahweh did indeed, through his holy spirit, prepare the body of Jesus in the womb of Mary, who at that time was a virgin. (Hebrews 10:5; Matthew 1:20) Because the only true God was with Jesus, the only true God was indeed with 'us' through Jesus, and, by means of Jesus' sacrifice, the God of Jesus can be "with" us today through Jesus. -- John 8:29; 10:32; 16:32; 14:10,11,23; John 17:1,3; Acts 10:38; 2 Corinthians 5:18; 1 John 4:4.
Isaiah 8:8 - and it shall sweep onward into Judah; it shall overflow and pass through; it shall reach even to the neck; and the stretching out of its wings shall fill the breadth of your land, Immanuel.
I quote from Frank Shallieu's book on Isaiah for Isaiah 8:8:
Quote
King Sennacherib was likened to a tremendous bird such as an eagle or a vulture. So large was the bird that “the stretching out of his wings shall fill the breadth of thy [Immanuel’s] land.” To those hearing the prophecy in Isaiah’s day, “Immanuel” was Judah. The land of Judah was pictured as a person, the neck or head being Jerusalem. “Immanuel” means “God is with us.” Judah was delivered from Sennacherib not by battle instruments but by the Lord’s destroying angel in one night. When there were so many corpses on the ground and Judah had not defended itself, the people said, “God is with us!” They thought, “God has protected His treasured land, His covenant people, from the threatening enemy.” This
superficial natural picture must be understood in order to understand the spiritual.
Many believe that Isaiah 8:8 refers to Jesus, and the land of Judah is being spoken of as Messiah's land, using the name "Immanuel" of the Messiah that was to be sent by Yahweh.
Isaiah 8:10 - Take counsel together, and it shall be brought to nothing; speak the word, and it shall not stand: for God is with us.
Most translators give us the translation of "Immanuel" in this verse as "God is with us," referring to the God of Abraham, Isaac and Jacob as being with Judah. In verse 8 Judah (or Jesus) is referred to as Immanuel, but in verse 8 the expression of that name, in effect, declares that God is with the people of Judah.
Matthew 1:23 - "Behold, the virgin shall be with child, and shall bring forth a son. They shall call his name Immanuel;" which is, being interpreted, "God with us."
Actually, what the scriptures say is that they shall call his name, Immanuel, and that Immanuel means "God with us." Many like to ignore the "name" part, however, and wish to think of it as saying that Jesus is "God with us", which is not what any of the scriptures say. A name given that has "God" it in it as the subject does not mean the person who bears such a name is God. Isaiah prophesied that the Messiah would be called by that name "Immanuel" because through the Messiah sent by Yahweh "God is with us". This does not mean that the Messiah sent by Yahweh is Yahweh who sent the Messiah.
There are many names given to people and things in the Bible that contain phrase concerning God similar to the way Immanuel is applied to the Messiah sent by the only true God. For instance, Abraham called a place "Yahweh-Jireh" (Genesis 22:14), which means, Yahweh will provide. Does that mean that the place that is called by that name is Yahweh Himself? Certainly not! Additionally, let us consider the name Jehu; in Hebrew, this name means "He is Yah" or "Yah is He." Does that mean the man Jehu is, in reality, Yahweh? Likewise with the name Eliathath, which means "God has come". Are we to think that Eliathath is God Almighty because of the name given to him? Other names could also be cited that could be interpreted in some manner that would make the bearer of the name Yahweh, if one were follow the same logic as many would apply to Matthew 1:23.
See also:
http://godandson.reslight.net/god-with-us.html
Why did John write that ... the Word became flesh...?
John did indeed write that the Word became flesh. John had seen his human glory, and had touched him in whom was human life. (John 1:4,14) John did not write, as some conclude, that the flesh added to was the Word was before he became flesh, as in the doctrine of "incarnation", and thereby that Jesus came to have two different planes of being. (The doctrine that alleges that Jesus had and still has two "natures" at once.) John wrote that he "became", or some translations say, "was made" flesh. In stating this, John was declaring that Jesus had become totally, fully and completely of the glory of a sinless human being (Romans 3:23; 2 Corinthians 5:20; 1 John 3:5) with a terrestrial body (1 Corinthians 15:40), having the glory a little lower than the angels (Hebrews 2:9) -- nothing more, nothing less. --Hebrews 2:9.
The idea that by becoming flesh, the Word of God formed some kind of alleged "hypostatic union" has to be imagined, then that which is imagined has be assumed, and then added to, and read into the scriptures. Nor is there any reason to add such imaginative assumptions to the scriptures. The scriptures state that our Lord was rich and became poor (2 Corinthians 8:9); not that he remained rich and seemed to become poor, but that he actually became poor that we might become rich. The scriptures say that he divested himself of those conditions that he had before he became human, and became flesh, in likeness of men who are bond-servants of corruption. (Philippians 2:7; Romans 8:3,23) The explanation is given, "a body did you prepare for me," a human body, and thus he was made a little lower than the angels, being a sinless human who could offer himself as a human being for the suffering of death, tasting death for all mankind who are condemned in Adam. -- Romans 5:12-19; Ephesians 5:2; 1 Corinthians 15:21,22; 1 Timothy 2:5,6; Hebrews 2:9; 10:5,10,12.
The Scriptures do not tell us how God transferred the life of the one called "the Word" from that of life on the spirit, celestial plane to life on the earthly, fleshy (terrestrial) plane, nor is it necessary for us to know this. We do not know that it was done for us, that an acceptable life and sacrifice that would prove God just and condemn sin in the flesh could be provided, and yet God could still justify humans based on that sacrifice. (Romans 3:26; 8:3) Thus, when Jesus was thus changed, he merely took the step of getting ready to become the sacrifice for sinners. In his pre-human state he could not have given the corresponding price for Adam; for he did not have the human life to offer. It was not a spirit being who had sinned, and who had brought the condemnation of death upon the human race, but it was a man. (Romans 5:12-19; 1 Corinthians 15:21,22) But when he became a human being, and after proving his obedience (thereby condemning sin in the flesh) to his God, he was in condition to be the human sin-offering for the sin of world. -- John 1:29; 6:51; Hebrews 4:5; 5:8; 9:28; 1 Peter 2:24; 1 John 2:2.
We would say that Jesus as a human being was the same life-principle as in His pre-human condition; and that when He became human he did not die as a spirit being, but as a human being. Since he offered his human soul up in sacrifice, he is no longer a human soul, but his dead soul was raised to life with the glory of a celestial, spiritual body. The Scriptures declare that our Lord "became flesh," a human being; and that the difference between Him and mankind in general was that He was sinless -- "holy, harmless, undefiled, separate from sinners" -- separate from the remainder of the human race, and yet, in likeness of sinful flesh, he suffered as men under bondage to corruption. (Hebrews 7:26) The Scriptures also explain that this difference resulted from the fact that He was specially begotten -- apart from the condemnation upon Adam, having received his human body and life from his God in heaven. -- John 6:51,57; Hebrews 10:5.
This explanation is altogether different from the "doctrine" known as "incarnation." The thought of the theory of incarnation is that a spirit being took possession of an earthly being -- became incarnate, dwelt in the flesh, in a way similar that some are possessed of evil spirits which dwell within them. This, we believe, is a wrong thought respecting Jesus which has come down from the tradition of men. There is nothing in the Scriptures about incarnation. The Scriptures do not say that Jesus' body died, while the spirit being within it remained alive. But the Bible says that our Lord left the glory which He had with the Father (John 17:5) and became flesh, a little lower than the angels (Hebrews 2:9); that, being found in the appearance of man (he appeared as though he was like other men who were condemned as sinners in Adam), he humbled himself in obedience to his God even to a horrible torturous death; that He was "put to death in the flesh." -- John 17:4,5; 1 Peter 3:18; Philippians 2:8.
Why did John write that Jesus Christ is the Word... ?
John does not directly write that Jesus Christ is the Word. What John wrote is that the Word was with God in the beginning spoken of. (John 1:1,2) In Revelation 19:13, the name "Word of God" is revealed as belonging to the Jesus.
Jesus bears the title of the Word because he declares, makes known, the word of Yahweh, and he performs the works of Yahweh; the title applies before he became flesh, during the days of his flesh, and after the days of his flesh, since God does all through Jesus. -- Matthew 11:27; Luke 10:22; John 1:1-3,10,17,18; 4:34; 5:22,23,36; 7:17; 8:40,42; 9:4; 10:32,35,37; 14:10; 17:3,4,5,26; Acts 17:31; Romans 2:16; 5:21; 1 Corinthians 1:30; 8:6; 2 Corinthians 4:6; 5:18; Galatians 3:14; Titus 3:6; Hebrews 1:2; 13:21; Revelation 19:13. |
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