Posted: Thu Apr 24, 2008 3:32 pm Post subject: sins of Christians who support and join the military
I would like to point out the sins involved around the military practice for pro-military Christians.
First of all, you have to swear when you enlist, which God has forbidden His people from doing. When you enlist, the government owns you. Now you have two masters, Jesus and your government? Jesus says you cannot have two masters.
1)
Quote:
Matthew 5:34 (New International Version)
34But I tell you, Do not swear at all: either by heaven, for it is God's throne;
Second, you may be killing Jesus' servants because His followers are everywhere in the world, including your enemy's countries.
2)
Quote:
Acts 9:5 "I am Jesus, whom you are persecuting," he replied.
Jesus tells us to be salt and light of the world. You cannot be salt and light of the world by joining to kill your enemy like the rest of the world.
Quote:
Matthew 5:13-15 (New International Version)
3)Salt and Light
13"You are the salt of the earth. But if the salt loses its saltiness, how can it be made salty again? It is no longer good for anything, except to be thrown out and trampled by men.
14"You are the light of the world. A city on a hill cannot be hidden. 15Neither do people light a lamp and put it under a bowl. Instead they put it on its stand, and it gives light to everyone in the house.
His followers are not of this world. The military is politics and of this world, not of Jesus.
4)John 15:19
If you belonged to the world, it would love you as its own. As it is, you do not belong to the world, but I have chosen you out of the world. That is why the world hates you.
5)
Quote:
Luke 6:27 (New International Version)
Love for Enemies
27"But I tell you who hear me: Love your enemies, do good to those who hate you,
So, there you have it, five of them.
Last edited by joyful on Tue Sep 04, 2012 2:35 am; edited 10 times in total
Well...I have found a subject where we can disagree!
It will require much study and research on my part, to even half way present a good defense of my views. But, I will attempt to offer a few of my thoughts here.
To me, the subject of Christians serving in the military is much more complicated than you seem to see it.
First off, the scriptures tell Christians to render unto Caesar (one's government) what is Caesar's. Most understand this to be paying one's taxes, to which I agree!
But, after much study I must also agree with those who include serving in one's country's military as something that is due Caesar, also.
The military in the US today, is all volunteer. But, many years ago, when I served in the US Army, before I was a Christian, and before there was an all volunteer military, the US military drafted (forced) most of those who served, to serve.
I can't speak for other countries. but in the US, even then, as now, one could/can request to serve one's country in the military as a Conscientious Objector (CO). Which means that while one is against causing harm to another human being, and refuses to carry and/or use a weapon with the intent to harm another person, they are still willing to serve in their country's military in a non-combat capacity.
I am sure that there are many, if not most, other countries who offer their citizens no such option.
Let me pause here for today. Other duties are calling.
I can appreciate you passion for the word of God. I too, feel very strongly about the truths taught in the scriptures.
Let's just slowly sift through the scriptures, examing every passage that we see as relevant to this topic.
Regarding Christians serving in the military, let’s first examine the word translated into English as KILL.
From the original Greek text of the New Testament (NT), as supplied by Strong’s Exhaustive Concordance…
G5407 - phoneuō - fon-yoo'-o
From G5406; to be a murderer (of): - kill, do murder, slay.
As we can now plainly see, the correct understanding of the meaning of the word kill in the NT is “murder”!
My Bible is telling me not to commit MURDER.
Our Bibles should, more properly, read, “Thou shalt not MURDER.”
As I see this, it does not tell me not to defend myself. If I were to kill someone who is attacking me, or my family, this would be an act of self-defense on my part…not MURDER.
This same understanding has to apply to countries, just as it does to individual people.
It is the aggressor, whether a person, or a country, that attacks another, who is committing MURDER.
The victim, who retaliates, is not committing MURDER, they are simply defending themselves!
So, in my view, the truth, when properly interpreted, is that NOT everyone involved in a war, EVEN those who are carrying rifles, and are KILLING their enemies in battle, are MURDERS!
joyful, hopefully, you, and everyone, will agree with this position, which I’m offering in these posts.
If not, then please feel free to offer scripture and comments in support of your view.
Hello, BIN here to bring up some Scriptures on the topic!
Pogo wrote:
It will require much study and research on my part, to even half way present a good defense of my views
On the other hand, it merely takes a few Scriptures to derive a pacifistic understanding of Christ's teachings.
Quote:
First off, the scriptures tell Christians to render unto Caesar (one's government) what is Caesar's. Most understand this to be paying one's taxes, to which I agree!
But, after much study I must also agree with those who include serving in one's country's military as something that is due Caesar, also.
I disagree for one major reason:
the secular government is innately an ungodly institution. The entire nation of Israel was held responsible when an ungodly king forced its people to do something as simple as keep a conquered king alive.
If you read every Scripture in the NT about "obeying the government", from Jesus to Paul, EVERY SINGLE INSTANCE is a direct reference to paying taxes. There's nothing about joining in and throwing your lot in with the government. When you throw in your lot/support them, you share their sin.
Quote:
The military in the US today, is all volunteer. But, many years ago, when I served in the US Army, before I was a Christian, and before there was an all volunteer military, the US military drafted (forced) most of those who served, to serve.
I can't speak for other countries. but in the US, even then, as now, one could/can request to serve one's country in the military as a Conscientious Objector (CO). Which means that while one is against causing harm to another human being, and refuses to carry and/or use a weapon with the intent to harm another person, they are still willing to serve in their country's military in a non-combat capacity.
I am sure that there are many, if not most, other countries who offer their citizens no such option.
Jesus teaches Christians to "love your enemy; do good to those that hate you." The military is an entire institution whose purpose is the antithesis of this teaching! Unless somehow that logic is faulty, Christians can have no part of it. The "definition of murder" doesn't even come into play: the OT teaches us that only God can execute judgment (ie destruction), and Jesus teaches us that we are to actively love our enemies.
It is for God to execute judgment, not for nations that have no love for Him. God can work through ungodly nations, but there's nothing in the Bible that supports throwing your lot in with the ungodly. In fact, there's loads against it.
Proverbs 14:14
Do not enter the path of the wicked
And do not proceed in the way of evil men.
15 Avoid it, do not pass by it;
Turn away from it and pass on.
It’s very easy to sit and analyze situations in the abstract, while taking a position that feels comfortable.
War, ultimately, really boils down to one man’s struggle for life against another, wouldn’t you agree?
I saw a report on the news last night that reminded me of a near miss I experienced a few months ago.
It seems that the authorities are searching for a missing thirty-something year old man who had called 911 that night reporting that someone was trying to break into his home.
When the police arrived, the man’s front door was standing wide open, all of the lights were on, but the man, and several major appliances, TV, stereo, computer, etc., were missing.
Almost the same identical thing happened to me, and my family, a few months ago but they escaped when they heard the sirens of the police cars approaching in the distance. Both my front and back doors were so badly damaged that they had to be replaced.
I had a loaded shotgun ready and waiting as I watched one door, and then another, heave, flex, crack and groan as they were being kicked.
Being a pacifist, you probably don’t own weapons, or even allow them in your house.
The people who attacked the man above, probably only wanted his property, but since the man was home, and would be able to identify them, I'm guessing that he will be found dead.
What would you do in a situation such as this one?
I am not a homeowner, just for clarity's sake. I live with my parents.
Pogo wrote:
Hello BIN -
Welcome to the discussion!
It’s very easy to sit and analyze situations in the abstract, while taking a position that feels comfortable.
When almost everyone on earth holds the opposite view, it's not as easy nor comfortable as you might think.
Quote:
War, ultimately, really boils down to one man’s struggle for life against another, wouldn’t you agree?
Right. So what right have we to judge whether one man's life is fit to continue over another man's?
Men think that "Oh, since this person is evil because he is killing other people, we should kill him."
So, in essense, what you have is justified evil, when your struggle leads you to sin against the other person.
But that has little to do with Jesus' teaching. It boils down to "Here is my reason for disobeying Christ's command."
Am I wrong? I'm just thinking logically, here.
Quote:
It seems that the authorities are searching for a missing thirty-something year old man who had called 911 that night reporting that someone was trying to break into his home.
When the police arrived, the man’s front door was standing wide open, all of the lights were on, but the man, and several major appliances, TV, stereo, computer, etc., were missing.
Almost the same identical thing happened to me, and my family, a few months ago but they escaped when they heard the sirens of the police cars approaching in the distance. Both my front and back doors were so badly damaged that they had to be replaced.
I had a loaded shotgun ready and waiting as I watched one door, and then another, heave, flex, crack and groan as they were being kicked.
The people who attacked the man above, probably only wanted his property, but since the man was home, and would be able to identify them, I'm guessing that he will be found dead.
Matthew 5
38 “You have heard that it was said, ‘AN EYE FOR AN EYE, AND A TOOTH FOR A TOOTH.’ 39 “But I say to you, do not resist an evil person; but whoever slaps you on your right cheek, turn the other to him also. 40 “If anyone wants to sue you and take your shirt, let him have your coat also.
Does this teaching not apply?
Sure, I could say "Well, he was breaking into my house: I have a right to shoot him."
But then I would have to completely ignore this teaching, no?
Quote:
Being a pacifist, you probably don’t own weapons, or even allow them in your house.
Anything can be a weapon.
Quote:
What would you do in a situation such as this one?
Would you resist?
May God bless us all,
Pogo
I don't know for certain, but I'm fairly sure that I'd make myself scarce (call the police) and let them take what they want. That makes me happy, because that's what the above passage teaches Christians to do.
If I were put into a confrontational spot, I'd probably run. If I couldn't run, I'd probably just let be whatever God lets be.
Why do you ask? Incidentally, hypotheticals are really bad discussion material, IMO. ;D
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I live with my parents.
