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joyful
Joined: 30 Aug 2007
Posts: 1376
Location: texas
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 Posted: Fri Aug 31, 2007 4:39 pm Post subject: hell |
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It is widely believed that all non-believers will be thrown into lake of fire and be burned forever as punishment by God.
Does this really make sense? According to the Bible God is love. Is it really logical to believe that God of love punish people just because they don't love or believe God?
Is it logical that people can live forever in hell to be tortured?
It seem that this is another mainstream churches big lie like trinity.
BTW, I am not universalist what ever that is. I am Bible believing Christian. Just FYI. |
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joyful
Joined: 30 Aug 2007
Posts: 1376
Location: texas
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| Posted: Sun Dec 23, 2007 7:11 pm Post subject: |
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For God so loved the world that He gave Is only begotten Son that whoever believes in Him shall not perish but have eternal life.
Non-believers will perish; not live in hell forever.
hitomi |
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Ad-minister
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| Posted: Tue Dec 25, 2007 5:02 pm Post subject: |
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| I agree |
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Viperlord
Joined: 19 Feb 2008
Posts: 77
Location: Somewhere beyond here...
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| Posted: Thu Mar 13, 2008 9:55 pm Post subject: Re: hell |
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| joyful wrote: |
It is widely believed that all non-believers will be thrown into lake of fire and be burned forever as punishment by God.
Does this really make sense? According to the Bible God is love. Is it really logical to believe that God of love punish people just because they don't love or believe God?
Is it logical that people can live forever in hell to be tortured?
It seem that this is another mainstream churches big lie like trinity.
BTW, I am not universalist what ever that is. I am Bible believing Christian. Just FYI. |
A Universalist is someone who believes that everyone will go to heaven. You seem to be an Annihilationist. That doesn't mean you're part of any organization, it just means that you believe that non-believers will be destroyed, and not exist any more.
Well, I don't know what your sense of ethics says, but logically there's nothing wrong with hell (unless some verse says otherwise). I see several verses that suggest that the torment is eternal (Matthew 25:46, for example).
God is just, and he cannot tolerate wrongdoing. He offered Jesus to be punished in our place, but if we will not accept that... justice must be served.
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joyful
Joined: 30 Aug 2007
Posts: 1376
Location: texas
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| Posted: Fri Mar 14, 2008 3:55 am Post subject: |
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| Quote: |
| A Universalist is someone who believes that everyone will go to heaven. You seem to be an Annihilationist. That doesn't mean you're part of any organization, it just means that you believe that non-believers will be destroyed, and not exist any more. |
That's right. but I don't know anything about universalist.
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| Well, I don't know what your sense of ethics says, but logically there's nothing wrong with hell (unless some verse says otherwise). I see several verses that suggest that the torment is eternal (Matthew 25:46, for example). |
We should reason the Bible within context. I don't believe Jesus meant non-beliver will be burn forever in hell. It is totally out of context. Jesus also says clearly non-believers will perish. You are ignoring this.
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| God is just, and he cannot tolerate wrongdoing. He offered Jesus to be punished in our place, but if we will not accept that... justice must be served. |
God will punish non-believers by not permitting to live eternally. Why do you think God will torment people forever??? Get real. God is not sadist.
you sure are traditional. You don't seem to be thinking too much. |
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Viperlord
Joined: 19 Feb 2008
Posts: 77
Location: Somewhere beyond here...
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| Posted: Wed Mar 19, 2008 12:02 am Post subject: |
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| joyful wrote: |
| We should reason the Bible within context. I don't believe Jesus meant non-beliver will be burn forever in hell. It is totally out of context. |
Context means the verses around it. Read the verses, and explain what the context makes it mean.
That verse (Matthew 25:46) directly states that the torment is eternal. If you cannot accept this, you are denying the words of Jesus.
| Joyful wrote: |
| Jesus also says clearly non-believers will perish. You are ignoring this. |
That is important. But it does not mean that they will no longer exist.
"Perish" does not necessarily mean to cease to exist. Usually it means physical death, but it can also mean to become meaningless. It must be understood in context - and "eternal" is a stronger word than "perish."
| Joyful wrote: |
| God will punish non-believers by not permitting to live eternally. |
That's no punishment. Many people commit suicide just to stop living.
| Joyful wrote: |
| Why do you think God will torment people forever??? Get real. God is not sadist. |
Does the Bible say that?
Who are you to tell God he cannot be a sadist?
| Joyful wrote: |
| you sure are traditional. You don't seem to be thinking too much. |
I am traditional. I am thinking these things through carefully.
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joyful
Joined: 30 Aug 2007
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Location: texas
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| Posted: Wed Mar 19, 2008 12:12 am Post subject: |
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[quote="Viperlord"]Context means the verses around it. Read the verses, and explain what the context makes it mean.[quote]
Context is all around the Bible not just one part.
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| That verse (Matthew 25:46) directly states that the torment is eternal. If you cannot accept this, you are denying the words of Jesus. |
Non believers will eternally perish.
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"Perish" does not necessarily mean to cease to exist. Usually it means physical death, but it can also mean to become meaningless. It must be understood in context - and "eternal" is a stronger word than "perish." |
'
Perish is eternal. take it or leave it.
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That's no punishment. Many people commit suicide just to stop living. |
You sound so vengeful. There is no room for vengeful people in God's kingdom.
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Does the Bible say that?
Who are you to tell God he cannot be a sadist? |
I thought you have read the Bible.
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I am traditional. I am thinking these things through carefully. |
Traditional people don't learn anything new. |
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Viperlord
Joined: 19 Feb 2008
Posts: 77
Location: Somewhere beyond here...
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| Posted: Wed Mar 19, 2008 12:58 am Post subject: |
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| joyful wrote: |
Context is all around the Bible not just one part.
Non believers will eternally perish. |
So the act of perishing will go on forever?
| joyful wrote: |
| Perish is eternal. take it or leave it. |
Yes. So is the punishment.
| joyful wrote: |
| You sound so vengeful. There is no room for vengeful people in God's kingdom. |
But there is room for a vengeful God. "Vengeance is mine," says the Lord.
| joyful wrote: |
| I thought you have read the Bible. |
I have read the Bible, and I know that God is kind by his own will, not because he has to be.
| joyful wrote: |
| Traditional people don't learn anything new. |
Then I am not traditional. Who cares? The labels must fit themselves to me, not the other way around.
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joyful
Joined: 30 Aug 2007
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Location: texas
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| Posted: Wed Mar 19, 2008 1:16 am Post subject: |
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| Viperlord wrote: |
| so the act of perishing will go on forever? |
they cease to exist.
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"Vengeance is mine," says the Lord. |
He is talking about judging and destroying people.
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I have read the Bible, and I know that God is kind by his own will, not because he has to be. |
He is not going to act meaninglessly and sadistically. Even I think that's vengeful, and God is more merciful than I.
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Then I am not traditional. Who cares? The labels must fit themselves to me, not the other way around. |
Your trinitarian position and supporting the military says a lot about you. |
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Viperlord
Joined: 19 Feb 2008
Posts: 77
Location: Somewhere beyond here...
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| Posted: Wed Mar 19, 2008 1:41 am Post subject: |
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| joyful wrote: |
| they cease to exist. |
That would mean that the punishment is over at some point. You can't punish someone who doesn't exist.
| joyful wrote: |
| He is talking about judging and destroying people. |
He is talking about vengeance.  you can't criticize God for being vengeful.
| joyful wrote: |
| He is not going to act meaninglessly and sadistically. Even I think that's vengeful, and God is more merciful than I. |
Vengeance, no matter how thorough and painful, is not meaningless. But God promises to repay - "Vengeance is mine; I shall repay." God is merciful, or vengeful, as he wishes.
| joyful wrote: |
| Your trinitarian position and supporting the military says a lot about you. |
Why do you follow stereotypes? You know very little about me.
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joyful
Joined: 30 Aug 2007
Posts: 1376
Location: texas
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| Posted: Wed Mar 19, 2008 2:23 am Post subject: |
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| Viperlord wrote: |
That would mean that the punishment is over at some point. You can't punish someone who doesn't exist. |
You are something else...
He stopped existing because of punishment. You don't sound like you are 20 years old.
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He is talking about vengeance. you can't criticize God for being vengeful. |
You just don't quit, do you?. Get rid of your pride.
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Vengeance, no matter how thorough and painful, is not meaningless. But God promises to repay - "Vengeance is mine; I shall repay." God is merciful, or vengeful, as he wishes. |
The same as the above, you are so typical. Typical people cannot be truthful servants for Jesus.
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Why do you follow stereotypes? You know very little about me. |
I just told you. You are stereotypical. |
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Viperlord
Joined: 19 Feb 2008
Posts: 77
Location: Somewhere beyond here...
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| Posted: Wed Mar 19, 2008 2:45 am Post subject: |
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| joyful wrote: |
| You are something else... |
So are you. 
| joyful wrote: |
| He stopped existing because of punishment. |
Yes, but as soon as he stops existing, the punishment is over.
| joyful wrote: |
| You don't sound like you are 20 years old. |
Well no, I won't be for eight more days.  But the Analyst is an Infantile type - we like to act like children.
| joyful wrote: |
| You just don't quit, do you?. Get rid of your pride. |
Who in their right mind would quit?
I am confident. I have investigated this. Knowledge puffs up... uh...
Touché. But it does not change the truth. 
| joyful wrote: |
| The same as the above, you are so typical. Typical people cannot be truthful servants for Jesus. |
You are going against what you have said. I am something else, remember?
| joyful wrote: |
| I just told you. You are stereotypical. |
No. :shrug: I am something else.
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joyful
Joined: 30 Aug 2007
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| Posted: Wed Mar 19, 2008 2:58 am Post subject: |
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| Viperlord wrote: |
Yes, but as soon as he stops existing, the punishment is over. |
That's the way it is.
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Well no, I won't be for eight more days. But the Analyst is an Infantile type - we like to act like children. |
You sound like someone who is not willing to grow.
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I am confident. I have investigated this. Knowledge puffs up... uh... |
Are you christian or just analyst? Right now, you don't sound like a christian.
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| going against what you have said. I am something else, remember? |
there are two kinds of it. I meant the other one, the negative one.
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No. :shrug: I am something else. |
the same as the above. |
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Viperlord
Joined: 19 Feb 2008
Posts: 77
Location: Somewhere beyond here...
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| Posted: Wed Mar 19, 2008 3:52 am Post subject: |
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| joyful wrote: |
| Viperlord wrote: |
Yes, but as soon as he stops existing, the punishment is over. |
That's the way it is. |
But that isn't eternal punishment, then.
| joyful wrote: |
| You sound like someone who is not willing to grow. |
They can't take my happiness!
Grow in the Lord, yes. Grow in the world, no.
But this explains why I attract all the nice people.
| joyful wrote: |
| Are you christian or just analyst? Right now, you don't sound like a christian. |
:shrug: What does a Christian sound like? I quoted Scripture in an Analyst way... it took both. Every kind of person can be a Christian.
| joyful wrote: |
| there are two kinds of it. I meant the other one, the negative one. |
Gotcha. But "weird" doesn't insult me either.
I know they were both insults... but you can't insult me for being weird and being normal at the same time.
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joyful
Joined: 30 Aug 2007
Posts: 1376
Location: texas
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| Posted: Wed Mar 19, 2008 1:07 pm Post subject: |
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| Viperlord wrote: |
| But that isn't eternal punishment, then. |
have it your way. it still does not change the truth.
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They can't take my happiness! |
You will die happy without waking up.
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| Grow in the Lord, yes. Grow in the world, no. |
You are growing in the world. You are trinity and military supporter.
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| But this explains why I attract all the nice people. |
You are not attracting me.  I am super nice. Ask my children, they will tell you.
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:shrug: What does a Christian sound like? I quoted Scripture in an Analyst way... it took both. Every kind of person can be a Christian. |
Of course, take a look at Christian communities. They all believe they are the true believers. There are millions of them. |
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Viperlord
Joined: 19 Feb 2008
Posts: 77
Location: Somewhere beyond here...
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| Posted: Thu Mar 20, 2008 3:16 am Post subject: |
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| joyful wrote: |
| Viperlord wrote: |
| But that isn't eternal punishment, then. |
have it your way. it still does not change the truth. |
No, no... the Bible states that the punishment is eternal. If I have it my way, you must accept the doctrine of eternal torment.
| joyful wrote: |
| You will die happy without waking up. |
What are you threatening me with? I do not fear death.
| joyful wrote: |
| You are growing in the world. You are trinity and military supporter. |
That is not growth at all.
| joyful wrote: |
| You are not attracting me. I am super nice. Ask my children, they will tell you. |
You are a warrior, not a caretaker. Your kindness is not constant. We each have our own place in the body.
| joyful wrote: |
| Of course, take a look at Christian communities. They all believe they are the true believers. There are millions of them. |
There are millions of true believers.
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joyful
Joined: 30 Aug 2007
Posts: 1376
Location: texas
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| Posted: Thu Mar 20, 2008 3:30 am Post subject: |
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No, no... the Bible states that the punishment is eternal. If I have it my way, you must accept the doctrine of eternal torment. |
I have my way and you have yours.
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What are you threatening me with? I do not fear death. |
It does not matter what you fear or not.
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That is not growth at all. |
I know, you will not grow being trinitarian as christian.
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You are a warrior, not a caretaker. Your kindness is not constant. We each have our own place in the body. |
I am Jesus' so I don't worry anything. He will coverup my weaknesses and shortcomings.
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There are millions of true believers. |
When you count from the beginning of God's history. |
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Viperlord
Joined: 19 Feb 2008
Posts: 77
Location: Somewhere beyond here...
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| Posted: Thu Mar 20, 2008 10:30 pm Post subject: |
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| joyful wrote: |
| I have my way and you have yours. |
As you wish.
| joyful wrote: |
| I am Jesus' so I don't worry anything. He will coverup my weaknesses and shortcomings. |
Well said.
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faith
Joined: 25 Sep 2007
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| Posted: Sun May 04, 2008 1:35 pm Post subject: lake of fire.. |
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Brethren, Jesus Christ is not divided as we should not be either - especially with something as important as this, for of a truth two sides shall rise - those with the LORD God & those that are not.. both sides shall be everlasting when the kingdom of God comes, it is made mention over & over in the scriptures..
even those that shall be cast into the lake of fire shall endure everlasting torment; God shall not put them there, their own sins shall put them there, for it is written that it is death & hell that shall be cast into the lake of fire & those that have death & hell in them shall be cast in.. the LORD God is merciful in all his works & he gives more than ample time to repent of the works of sin; however, once the gate of salvation is closed off, those that are cast into lake of fire will more than deserve what is given them..
the LORD God doesn't want anyone to go there either, for the lake of fire's original intent is prepared for the devil & his angels, that is why God's invitation is out there, for those that will turn away from sin & avoid the torment that is to come..
the prophets have warned us of this coming time, & so has our LORD Jesus Christ, for the first time Jesus Christ arrived - he made the way to salvation & forgiveness of sin, so anyone that falls upon him shall be broken & re-made into a new creature.. the second time he returns, there will be no prize for second place, no grading on a curve - either you are with him, or you are not & those that are not shall share the fiery home with the devil, his angels & all death, hell & all that is evil for ever & ever in the outer darkness of the pit..
-faith |
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joyful
Joined: 30 Aug 2007
Posts: 1376
Location: texas
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| Posted: Sun May 04, 2008 2:30 pm Post subject: |
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| Quote: |
| even those that shall be cast into the lake of fire shall endure everlasting torment; |
faith,
This reasoning is out of context because God is love and He is not vengeful and does not have such cruel heart to torture anyone just because they don't obey Him. God made this universe and He is the Ruler of evrything. Of fcours He is in control of so called "hell" too.
I don't know the original Scripture but I reason the Bible within context.
Jesus also says that "For God so love the world that whoever believes in Him shall not perish but have eternal life". Jesus says it clearly that people who don't belive in Him will perish; He is not saying they will live forever in "hell".
hitomi |
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