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joyful
Joined: 30 Aug 2007
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Location: texas
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 Posted: Sat Mar 08, 2008 2:10 am Post subject: |
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Here it is:
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Proverbs 8:22-31
22 "The LORD brought me forth as the first of his works, [a] , [b]
before his deeds of old;
23 I was appointed [c] from eternity,
from the beginning, before the world began.
24 When there were no oceans, I was given birth,
when there were no springs abounding with water;
25 before the mountains were settled in place,
before the hills, I was given birth,
26 before he made the earth or its fields
or any of the dust of the world.
27 I was there when he set the heavens in place,
when he marked out the horizon on the face of the deep,
28 when he established the clouds above
and fixed securely the fountains of the deep,
29 when he gave the sea its boundary
so the waters would not overstep his command,
and when he marked out the foundations of the earth.
30 Then I was the craftsman at his side.
I was filled with delight day after day,
rejoicing always in his presence,
31 rejoicing in his whole world
and delighting in mankind. |
This is all about Jesus. |
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Viperlord
Joined: 19 Feb 2008
Posts: 77
Location: Somewhere beyond here...
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| Posted: Sat Mar 08, 2008 4:03 am Post subject: |
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| joyful wrote: |
Here it is:
| Quote: |
Proverbs 8:22-31
22 "The LORD brought me forth as the first of his works, [a] , [b]
before his deeds of old;
23 I was appointed [c] from eternity,
from the beginning, before the world began.
24 When there were no oceans, I was given birth,
when there were no springs abounding with water;
25 before the mountains were settled in place,
before the hills, I was given birth,
26 before he made the earth or its fields
or any of the dust of the world.
27 I was there when he set the heavens in place,
when he marked out the horizon on the face of the deep,
28 when he established the clouds above
and fixed securely the fountains of the deep,
29 when he gave the sea its boundary
so the waters would not overstep his command,
and when he marked out the foundations of the earth.
30 Then I was the craftsman at his side.
I was filled with delight day after day,
rejoicing always in his presence,
31 rejoicing in his whole world
and delighting in mankind. |
This is all about Jesus. |
Oh... no, that's about Wisdom - verses 1-3 introduce it.
Anyway, I didn't intend to start a debate on the creation of Jesus - I just wanted to imagine it more thoroughly.
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joyful
Joined: 30 Aug 2007
Posts: 1376
Location: texas
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| Posted: Sat Mar 08, 2008 4:27 am Post subject: |
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| Yes, it is also about Jesus. |
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Viperlord
Joined: 19 Feb 2008
Posts: 77
Location: Somewhere beyond here...
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| Posted: Tue Mar 11, 2008 12:02 am Post subject: |
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| joyful wrote: |
| Yes, it is also about Jesus. |
How do you know that?
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joyful
Joined: 30 Aug 2007
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Location: texas
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| Posted: Tue Mar 11, 2008 1:42 am Post subject: |
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| Viperlord wrote: |
| joyful wrote: |
| Yes, it is also about Jesus. |
How do you know that? |
Who else fits there??? |
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Viperlord
Joined: 19 Feb 2008
Posts: 77
Location: Somewhere beyond here...
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| Posted: Wed Mar 12, 2008 1:10 am Post subject: |
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| joyful wrote: |
| Who else fits there??? |
Wisdom. 
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joyful
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| Posted: Wed Mar 12, 2008 2:13 am Post subject: |
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| Jesus is Wisdom. |
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Viperlord
Joined: 19 Feb 2008
Posts: 77
Location: Somewhere beyond here...
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| Posted: Wed Mar 12, 2008 2:32 am Post subject: |
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| joyful wrote: |
| Jesus is Wisdom. |
Wisdom is female.
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joyful
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| Posted: Wed Mar 12, 2008 2:59 am Post subject: |
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| Viperlord wrote: |
| joyful wrote: |
| Jesus is Wisdom. |
Wisdom is female. |
There is no gender in the Bible. God calls Himself husband and wife both, too. |
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Viperlord
Joined: 19 Feb 2008
Posts: 77
Location: Somewhere beyond here...
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| Posted: Wed Mar 12, 2008 11:55 pm Post subject: |
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| joyful wrote: |
| There is no gender in the Bible. God calls Himself husband and wife both, too. |
I don't know where he is called "wife", but it doesn't matter. I just found a source that says the word "Wisdom" can't be masculine in Hebrew, so I'll take that for granted.
There is no clear reason why the passage has to be referring to Christ - it could easily be referring to the concept of Wisdom in itself, so I'm leery of taking it as proof either way.
After further investigation, I have found strong evidence that the Trinity is false (heaven.net.nz, if you're interested), so I will test it against a Trinitarian friend. I do not think it will be socially ruinous to deny the Trinity in this way, for which I am thankful, although I would accept it if it were necessary... provided my friend cannot convince me otherwise.
The question of whether Jesus is created or eternal still eats at me - I would rather he be eternal, but mainly for human reasons, so I will need to think about it further.
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joyful
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| Posted: Thu Mar 13, 2008 12:42 am Post subject: |
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| The question of whether Jesus is created or eternal still eats at me - I would rather he be eternal, but mainly for human reasons, so I will need to think about it further. |
Jesus is eternal. Adam and Eve were created eternal if they did not comit sin. Jesus is perfect therefore He is eternal. Jesus never comitted sin and He will never comt sin. that's why He is Holy. He is perfact spiritual being sitting right hand of almighty God.
I will be back for the rest. |
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Viperlord
Joined: 19 Feb 2008
Posts: 77
Location: Somewhere beyond here...
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| Posted: Thu Mar 13, 2008 1:43 am Post subject: |
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| joyful wrote: |
Jesus is eternal. Adam and Eve were created eternal if they did not comit sin. Jesus is perfect therefore He is eternal. Jesus never comitted sin and He will never comt sin. that's why He is Holy. He is perfact spiritual being sitting right hand of almighty God.
I will be back for the rest. |
OK - by "eternal" I mean like God is, with no beginning or end. When something has a beginning but no end, I just call that "immortal."
Something can be "created eternal" I guess - since God is able to change the past. The Nicene Creed says "begotten, not made"... I think I will take that as "God decided that Jesus would exist, without creating him at any particular time." Yes, that's a nice new man-made doctrine to replace the Trinity with. 
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joyful
Joined: 30 Aug 2007
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| Posted: Thu Mar 13, 2008 2:27 am Post subject: |
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[quote="Viperlord"]
| joyful wrote: |
Jesus is eternal. Adam and Eve were created eternal if they did not comit sin. Jesus is perfect therefore He is eternal. Jesus never comitted sin and He will never comt sin. that's why He is Holy. He is perfact spiritual being sitting right hand of almighty God.
I will be back for the rest. |
| Quote: |
| OK - by "eternal" I mean like God is, with no beginning or end. When something has a beginning but no end, I just call that "immortal." |
Jesus is our Lord and His Father is above everything and everyone including Jesus and Holy Spirit. Father does not need anyone else; He alone is almighty.
| Quote: |
| Something can be "created eternal" I guess - since God is able to change the past. The Nicene Creed says "begotten, not made"... I think I will take that as "God decided that Jesus would exist, without creating him at any particular time." Yes, that's a nice new man-made doctrine to replace the Trinity with. |
Jesus can sin if He chooses to but He won't. That's why He is worthy to be praised. |
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Viperlord
Joined: 19 Feb 2008
Posts: 77
Location: Somewhere beyond here...
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| Posted: Thu Mar 13, 2008 10:04 pm Post subject: |
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| joyful wrote: |
| Jesus is our Lord and His Father is above everything and everyone including Jesus and Holy Spirit. Father does not need anyone else; He alone is almighty. |
| joyful wrote: |
| Jesus can sin if He chooses to but He won't. That's why He is worthy to be praised. |
OK, I agree with all that, yes.  But what I mean is, did Jesus have a beginning? I think he is still timeless (Alpha and Omega) even though he is not equal with the father.
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joyful
Joined: 30 Aug 2007
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| Posted: Fri Mar 14, 2008 3:45 am Post subject: |
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OK, I agree with all that, yes. But what I mean is, did Jesus have a beginning? |
Yes Jesus had beginning. But He does not have ending because He is everlasting Father of His people.
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I think he is still timeless (Alpha and Omega) even though he is not equal with the father. |
God has no beginning and no ending. |
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Viperlord
Joined: 19 Feb 2008
Posts: 77
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| Posted: Sat Mar 22, 2008 9:08 pm Post subject: |
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In John 20:28, Timothy calls Jesus God, and Jesus commends him for it in the next verse. I think that means that we are right to call Jesus God, even if he is not as great as the Father.
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joyful
Joined: 30 Aug 2007
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| Posted: Sat Mar 22, 2008 9:12 pm Post subject: |
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| God is only one. Take it or leave it. |
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Viperlord
Joined: 19 Feb 2008
Posts: 77
Location: Somewhere beyond here...
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| Posted: Sat Mar 22, 2008 9:25 pm Post subject: |
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| joyful wrote: |
| God is only one. Take it or leave it. |
You cannot hide from Jesus' teachings.
Even though the Father is greater, he has given Jesus all of his glory. Jesus has the right to be worshiped as God.
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joyful
Joined: 30 Aug 2007
Posts: 1376
Location: texas
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| Posted: Sat Mar 22, 2008 11:44 pm Post subject: |
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| Even though the Father is greater, he has given Jesus all of his glory. Jesus has the right to be worshiped as God. |
God is only one and Jesus IS GIVEN THE GLORY BY HIS FATHER. Jesus is worthy to be praised because He is the Lamb of God. BUT HE IS NOT GOD.
The end of discussion!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!! |
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