Posted: Sun May 04, 2008 3:29 pm Post subject: lake of fire..
hitomi-
it is not out of context, it is written in the word as is, not by my hand, but of the LORD God - i shall not debate this, for there is nothing to debate.. here is something that is worth your time to read, & equally important for all that know (or don't know) the word of God.. look at it for what it is, without adding personal additions or subtractions..
the LORD liveth, hell is not a place - the lake of fire is.. the LORD God holds the keys, death & hell shall be cast into the lake of fire - he will not cast anyone in, those worthy of the lake of fire shall cast themselves in by their own iniquity.. EVERLASTING, that is what the word of God says & that is what it is & if in doubt, pray to the LORD Jesus Christ for the more prefect understanding..
bottom line is this, the LORD Jesus Christ will bring everything into subjection at the last trump - it is no laughing matter & it's serious business, he is cleaning house of ALL evil for all eternity to come..
-faith
joyful wrote:
Quote:
even those that shall be cast into the lake of fire shall endure everlasting torment;
faith,
This reasoning is out of context because God is love and He is not vengeful and does not have such cruel heart to torture anyone just because they don't obey Him. God made this universe and He is the Ruler of evrything. Of fcours He is in control of so called "hell" too.
I don't know the original Scripture but I reason the Bible within context.
Jesus also says that "For God so love the world that whoever believes in Him shall not perish but have eternal life". Jesus says it clearly that people who don't belive in Him will perish; He is not saying they will live forever in "hell".
it is not out of context, it is written in the word as is,
What does it serve for God to put anyone in a never-ending burning pit???? It is absolutely cruel thing to do. The context of the Bible is God is love. Let's not forget that. Does your interpretation make sense to you?
There IS a way of interpretting this passage you're holding on to without resorting to believing God is infinitely cruel, you know.
Posted: Sun May 04, 2008 4:11 pm Post subject: Re: lake of fire..
disclaimer: CAPITAL letters are inserted for emphasis, not for overbearing "shouting". =P
faith wrote:
both sides shall be everlasting
Excuse me?
Jesus says that "whosoever believeth on Him shall have everlasting life." That directly implies that those who DON'T believe will NOT have everlasting life. The Greek word "life" means exactly what it literally means: life/time. If you're burning in hell forever, you have been given everlasting life/time.
Quote:
even those that shall be cast into the lake of fire shall endure everlasting torment; ... it is not out of context, it is written in the word as is, not by my hand, but of the LORD God - i shall not debate this, for there is nothing to debate
Actually, if you don't mind me being blunt, you are absolutely and completely wrong. The phrase "everlasting torment" does not appear in the Scriptures even ONE time.
In the OT, those who claimed to speak in God's name and yet said what He did NOT say were punishable by death.
You're absolutely right that this is a very important thing: so I suggest that you DO bring yourself to debate this, because if you're wrong, you are bearing false witness of God.
Quote:
.. here is something that is worth your time to read, & equally important for all that know the word of God.. look at it for what it is, without adding personal additions or subtractions..
Thank you for your thoughtfulness. And if you will be so kind to do the same for me, here is something that is also worth your time to read, and extremely important for all that say they know the word of God. Read it EXACTLY what it says, without adding personal additions, subtractions, or prefabricated doctrines:
Jude 7
just as Sodom and Gomorrah and the cities around them, since they in the same way as these indulged in gross immorality and went after strange flesh, are exhibited as an example in undergoing the punishment of eternal fire.
2 Peter
6 and if He condemned the cities of Sodom and Gomorrah to destruction by reducing them to ashes, having made them an example to those who would live ungodly lives thereafter; 7 and if He rescued righteous Lot, oppressed by the sensual conduct of unprincipled men 8 (for by what he saw and heard that righteous man, while living among them, felt his righteous soul tormented day after day by their lawless deeds), 9 The Lord knoweth how to deliver the godly out of temptations and to reserve the unjust unto the day of judgment to be punished
The Bible tells us exactly what hell is going to be like. Jude says that THAT is the example. And Sodom and Gomorrha were completely destroyed: the cities are still suffering the punishment of eternal fire, and yet nothing is burning.
Because nothing is left to be burned: it has burned UP.
Quote:
EVERLASTING, that is what the word of God says & that is what it is & if in doubt, pray to the LORD Jesus Christ for the more prefect understanding..
I hope the same for you, and you will if you keep an open mind, because God opens the truth to those who seek it. Please don't shut your ears to truth.
Posted: Sun May 04, 2008 4:28 pm Post subject: lake of fire..
friend, why is there malice in your heart? i do nothing but point the truth of the matter, for this truth is not mine but of the LORD God that gave his word for all that seek him.. hitomi speaks highly of you yet you lash out when i have not..
the great commandment of God is to love him with all thy heart, & all thy soul, & all thy mind & the second is just as great - thou shalt love thy neighbor as thyself..
i have said my peace, i'll leave now & post elsewhere..
Posted: Sun May 04, 2008 4:36 pm Post subject: Re: lake of fire..
faith wrote:
friend, why is there malice in your heart?
Friend, why do you hide behind a veil of offense in order to ignore the Biblical material I have presented for your consideration as a servant of God?
I do nothing but point the truth of the matter, using nothing but Scriptures as the bases of my arguments. And all you have to say in response to the Bible arguments is "Why is there malice in your heart"?
Quote:
.. hitomi speaks highly of you yet you lash out when i have not.
*shrug* Again, I did not mean to seem overbearing, and I apologize if it came out that way anyway: it's one of my faults.
But if you believe I have become angry, and that reason is enough for you to completely ignore Biblical insights, then I can't stop you from refusing to consider the truth.
Quote:
the great commandment of God is to love him with all thy heart, & all thy soul, & all thy mind & the second is just as great - thou shalt love thy neighbor as thyself..
How loving is it to ignore what His Word says? How can I be a servant of God if I don't get intellectually riled up when someone speaks falsely in the name of God?
Quote:
i have said my piece, i'll leave now & post elsewhere..
I can't make you study the Bible. I do hope you reconsider, but in any event-
Peace
-Peter
PS
Quote:
for this truth is not mine but of the LORD God that gave his word for all that seek him
I'm sorry, but this truth is indeed yours, not God's. If you disagree with me on this, then I invite you to respond to the biblical reasons which I have posted as evidence.
You have yet to post actual Scripture in this thread. Be very careful when you speak in the name of God, yet do not use direct Scripture of your means of speach.
Posted: Sun May 04, 2008 9:26 pm Post subject: lake of fire = everlasting punishment..
you judge me without knowing me, you know nothing of me & you say that just because i don't immediately post scripture to back my words automatically deems me to be a liar?
yes, you did - you accuse me of being a liar..
should you know the scriptures, then you should be fully aware of what happens to liars & what awaits them when our LORD Jesus Christ returns.. i have decided to stay a moment for a reason unknown to you as of yet, but i won't be shut down when all i speak is the truth of the matter - i will defend the word of God - for your peace of mind, yes - i will pull the scriptures that clearly mention this, for there are many throughout the whole word of God..
i will not post all, but three to start & if you're not convinced, then another; & if you're still not convinced, then another still & if it comes to the point where you're not convinced after all that, then i don't know what else i can do to reveal the truth..
the key words are EVERLASTING & FOREVER.. to start off, by definition:
EVERLASTING :: continuing forever or indefinitely..
FOREVER :: time without end..
now then, to the scriptures.. the first chosen from the Prophet Daniel..
Quote:
Daniel 12:1 - 3 12:1 And at that time shall Michael stand up, the great prince which standeth for the children of thy people: and there shall be a time of trouble, such as never was since there was a nation even to that same time: and at that time thy people shall be delivered, every one that shall be found written in the book.
2 And many of them that sleep in the dust of the earth shall awake, some to everlasting life, and some to shame and everlasting contempt.
3 And they that be wise shall shine as the brightness of the firmament; and they that turn many to righteousness as the stars for ever and ever.
the next is from the LORD Jesus Christ in the book of Matthew..
Quote:
Matthew 25:31 - 46 25:31 When the Son of man shall come in his glory, and all the holy angels with him, then shall he sit upon the throne of his glory:
32 And before him shall be gathered all nations: and he shall separate them one from another, as a shepherd divideth his sheep from the goats:
33 And he shall set the sheep on his right hand, but the goats on the left.
34 Then shall the King say unto them on his right hand, Come, ye blessed of my Father, inherit the kingdom prepared for you from the foundation of the world:
35 For I was an hungred, and ye gave me meat: I was thirsty, and ye gave me drink: I was a stranger, and ye took me in:
36 Naked, and ye clothed me: I was sick, and ye visited me: I was in prison, and ye came unto me.
37 Then shall the righteous answer him, saying, Lord, when saw we thee an hungred, and fed thee? or thirsty, and gave thee drink?
38 When saw we thee a stranger, and took thee in? or naked, and clothed thee?
39 Or when saw we thee sick, or in prison, and came unto thee?
40 And the King shall answer and say unto them, Verily I say unto you, Inasmuch as ye have done it unto one of the least of these my brethren, ye have done it unto me.
41 Then shall he say also unto them on the left hand, Depart from me, ye cursed, into everlasting fire, prepared for the devil and his angels:
42 For I was an hungred, and ye gave me no meat: I was thirsty, and ye gave me no drink:
43 I was a stranger, and ye took me not in: naked, and ye clothed me not: sick, and in prison, and ye visited me not.
44 Then shall they also answer him, saying, Lord, when saw we thee an hungred, or athirst, or a stranger, or naked, or sick, or in prison, and did not minister unto thee?
45 Then shall he answer them, saying, Verily I say unto you, Inasmuch as ye did it not to one of the least of these, ye did it not to me.
46 And these shall go away into everlasting punishment: but the righteous into life eternal.
& the third & the home that will hit home is as follows from the Book of Revelation..
Quote:
Revelation 14:9 - 11 14:9 And the third angel followed them, saying with a loud voice, If any man worship the beast and his image, and receive his mark in his forehead, or in his hand,
10 The same shall drink of the wine of the wrath of God, which is poured out without mixture into the cup of his indignation; and he shall be tormented with fire and brimstone in the presence of the holy angels, and in the presence of the Lamb:
11 And the smoke of their torment ascendeth up for ever and ever: and they have no rest day nor night, who worship the beast and his image, and whosoever receiveth the mark of his name.
of a truth, these 3 plus the two references i provided for you earlier are more than sufficient in saying that this is the fate of anyone that stands against the LORD Jesus Christ when he returns at the last trump.. it is written in scripture, so shall it be & if you continue to question this, then you no longer question me - you question the validity of God's word..
i forgive your words prior to this point, but a bit of friendly advice - what you did is rude against one who wholeheartedly believes in God & will die for his name a thousand times over, for of a truth i spend more time with the word of God than many others out there that believe with their lips only, the LORD God is my salvation & in him shall i stand strong.. if we are to continue working together, then we must put to rest the pride of adding more or taking less from the word of God to fit our imperfect souls lost in sin..
as i mentioned before & again i tell you, Jesus Christ is not divided, nor should we be either..
Posted: Mon May 05, 2008 2:33 am Post subject: Re: lake of fire = everlasting punishment..
First off, please pardon me if I sounded aggravated. I get annoyed easily when people brush off using their minds because of an unrelated issue. I've criticized my mother at times because she would discount something solely because of who else believes it.
I say "unrelated", because you judged my heart as being "full of malice," yet there is no such thing going on! And yet because of that, you felt no need to think about Scriptural refutations to what you believe?
faith wrote:
you judge me without knowing me,
What? What did I say where I judged you??
Quote:
you know nothing of me & you say that just because i don't immediately post scripture to back my words automatically deems me to be a liar?
Where did I ever say you were a liar?
I said you were wrong: that you stated something as fact which was untrue.
And then I went on to explain why what you stated was not true. What else could I do?
I don't know about you, but if I felt that someone was calling me a liar every time they pointed out I was wrong, I'd be pretty darn unhappy a lot of the time.
Quote:
i won't be shut down when all i speak is the truth of the matter - i will defend the word of God - for your peace of mind, yes - i will pull the scriptures that clearly mention this, for there are many throughout the whole word of God..
Back atcha.
Quote:
the key words are EVERLASTING & FOREVER.. to start off, by definition:
EVERLASTING :: continuing forever or indefinitely..
FOREVER :: time without end..
Ah! Here is a problem, ma'am, for you are using ENGLISH definitions for GREEK and Hebrew words. "Aeon" does not mean "everlasting", nor "forever", yet it is translated to BOTH in the NT. Aeon means "time indefinite": an unspecified period of time.
Before I say anything about these Scriptures you've posted, please reassure me that you are interested in the truth, and are willing to test your beliefs against Scripture and facts (such as the relevance of Greek/Hebrew meanings of words). For, if nothing else, there are some lexicon-related issues which you are not aware of. For example, are you familiar with Strong's Greek Concordance?
Are you willing to discuss this issue, and willing to admit you are wrong (IF you are wrong)? If I'm wrong, then let's prove it together.
Posted: Mon May 05, 2008 1:09 pm Post subject: questioning God's validity?
so you do question the validity of God's word then, for if you knew the scriptures of the english translated Holy Bible - it stems from the first transcribed rendition of the Authorized King James of 1611, the first done by a group of individuals that fully believed in the word of God & brought it forth as the authorized text for the english speaking world.. not only did these men believe in the word of God, but more-so that the Spirit of the LORD moved through them - this is God's doing, not men's..
the LORD God brought forth a perfect work & he does things only once & you had best get it to your head that the words chosen for the text are more exact to the Textus Receptus & the hebrew Rabbinic Bible than any of us can do even unto now - if they are there, it's there because God made it so.. the text is clear as day, & true to the good state that is God - the only good in this earth, even now..
more-over, so far you have done absolutely nothing to prove your point other than attempting to assume that i know less compared to you.. here is the truth of the matter - you've done nothing but reveal how little you know of the word of God, for it is neither complex nor mysterious & is revealed to the meek & poor in spirit.. the lake of fire is real & beneath us even now & it has been mentioned even back since the days of Moses; it is a tempest of dark, everlasting fire & is a pit without light.. everything i have pointed out is true to the word of God & those that get cast in will have no rest, but shall be tormented forever & ever - THAT IS THE SUM OF THE MATTER..
there shall be no debate, for the word of God is the final authority in this matter, & if you choose not to accept that, it shall be between you & the LORD God.. after all, what truth can i say to those that choose not to see, nor hear, nor accept?
Posted: Wed May 07, 2008 2:40 am Post subject: Re: questioning God's validity?
faith wrote:
here is the truth of the matter - you've done nothing but reveal how little you know of the word of God, for it is neither complex nor mysterious & is revealed to the meek & poor in spirit.. the lake of fire is real & beneath us even now & it has been mentioned even back since the days of Moses; it is a tempest of dark, everlasting fire & is a pit without light.. everything i have pointed out is true to the word of God & those that get cast in will have no rest, but shall be tormented forever & ever - THAT IS THE SUM OF THE MATTER..
there shall be no debate, for the word of God is the final authority in this matter, & if you choose not to accept that, it shall be between you & the LORD God.. after all, what truth can i say to those that choose not to see, nor hear, nor accept?
-faith
*rollseyes*
I never once relied on your lack of knowledge as basis for my claims...
Faith, I will try this one last time. Please consider each point for me.
1- I never questioned the Word of God. You seem to be ignoring that the Word of God was written down in Greek and Hebrew, not English. The Greek language doesn't change just because it's now in the Bible: we can still look at the original words which translators looked at. These are facts.
2- "Aeon" does not directly translate to any one English word. It means, according to Strong's Greek Dictionary, "an indefinite period of time." In some cases, it means "forever", in many many cases, it means "until it is completed". We don't have an English word for that. These are facts.
3- Jude (and Peter) say that Sodom and Gomorrah are the example of eternal fire. This is fact.
4- Sodom and Gomorrah are completely burned up. This is fact.
5- Therefore, the eternal nature of the punishment CANNOT be its duration; it MUST be the effect of the punishment. This is fact.
I don't care whether or not I'm prideful, or if you got better grades than me, or who is more spiritual, or who knows more Bible verses, or whoever has more faith...
Instead of telling me that the Bible isn't mysterious and that the Bible is for the simple-minded...
please just answer these issues. Just because it is new and mysterious to you doesn't mean it's mysterious and complicated: it's very, very simple, if you'd consider it from a biblical and intellectual standpoint. And I'm sure if ever you someday DO adopt the idea, you'd find that it is indeed a very simple concept.
You cannot post new topics in this forum You cannot reply to topics in this forum You cannot edit your posts in this forum You cannot delete your posts in this forum You cannot vote in polls in this forum
FAQ
Search
Memberlist
Usergroups
Register
Profile
Log in to check your private messages
Log in
