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joyful
Joined: 30 Aug 2007
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Location: texas
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 Posted: Fri Mar 14, 2008 5:07 pm Post subject: Futile doctrine debate |
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You cannot argue with man-made doctrines, They built them up all out of context using the Scriptures. It seems biblical because they are all quoting the Scriptures. You can ALWAYS JUSTIFY ANYTHING IF YOU WANT TO. That's why all those doctrine debates are endless, it does not matter which doctrine. They all seem to be biblical. It seems that most churchgoers are buying these deceptive tricks and schemes of satan. That's why I don't even try to list up the scriptures to refute, it is futile and waste of time. I just get straight to the point to spread Jesus' messages.
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Viperlord
Joined: 19 Feb 2008
Posts: 77
Location: Somewhere beyond here...
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| Posted: Fri Mar 14, 2008 11:36 pm Post subject: Re: Futile doctrine debate |
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| joyful wrote: |
You cannot argue with man-made doctrines, They built them up all out of context using the Scriptures. It seems biblical because they are all quoting the Scriptures. You can ALWAYS JUSTIFY ANYTHING IF YOU WANT TO. That's why all those doctrine debates are endless, it does not matter which doctrine. They all seem to be biblical. It seems that most churchgoers are buying these deceptive tricks and schemes of satan. That's why I don't even try to list up the scriptures to refute, it is futile and waste of time. I just get straight to the point to spread Jesus' messages.
hitomi |
It is quite true that all doctrines can be seemingly justified. However, any argument to justify a lie will be flawed. If such arguments are allowed to stand, truth is defeated. This is what Paul meant in 2 Corinthians 10:5:
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| We demolish arguments and every pretension that sets itself up against the knowledge of God, and we take captive every thought to make it obedient to Christ. |
Many people state their views without arguing about it; most of them are wrong or worse. But only the truth can withstand testing. I will test every claim thoroughly, and believe those which withstand the testing.
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joyful
Joined: 30 Aug 2007
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Location: texas
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| Posted: Fri Mar 14, 2008 11:53 pm Post subject: Re: Futile doctrine debate |
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| Viperlord wrote: |
It is quite true that all doctrines can be seemingly justified. However, any argument to justify a lie will be flawed. If such arguments are allowed to stand, truth is defeated. This is what Paul meant in 2 Corinthians 10:5: |
Jesus is the judge of who is spreading the truth or not. I believe all doctrines spread by orgnizations are flawed. Thats why I am protesting against them, including trinity.
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Many people state their views without arguing about it; |
You are so wrong. They argue very cleverly using the Scriptures. They are all out of context. I know they are deceptive because they are out of context. |
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Viperlord
Joined: 19 Feb 2008
Posts: 77
Location: Somewhere beyond here...
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| Posted: Sat Mar 15, 2008 2:50 am Post subject: Re: Futile doctrine debate |
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| joyful wrote: |
| Jesus is the judge of who is spreading the truth or not. I believe all doctrines spread by orgnizations are flawed. Thats why I am protesting against them, including trinity. |
Anyone who wants to know what to believe has to judge who is spreading the truth. We can't just have a verbal war and hope the most powerful person is right.  Unless being right makes you powerful... I don't deny that might be so, but I have trouble telling the difference.
| joyful wrote: |
| You are so wrong. They argue very cleverly using the Scriptures. They are all out of context. I know they are deceptive because they are out of context. |
I'm not referring to Trinitarians. I'm referring to false prophets - New Age visionaries, perhaps. A false prophet is worse than a false debater, I think.
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joyful
Joined: 30 Aug 2007
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Location: texas
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| Posted: Sat Mar 15, 2008 3:02 am Post subject: Re: Futile doctrine debate |
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| Viperlord wrote: |
Anyone who wants to know what to believe has to judge who is spreading the truth. We can't just have a verbal war and hope the most powerful person is right. Unless being right makes you powerful... I don't deny that might be so, but I have trouble telling the difference. |
You will have confidence when you are serving Jesus with all your might. But Jesus is the final Judge of everyone.
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I'm not referring to Trinitarians. I'm referring to false prophets - New Age visionaries, perhaps. A false prophet is worse than a false debater, I think. |
I believe people who are preaching the man-made doctrines are false prophets, including trinity. |
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joyful
Joined: 30 Aug 2007
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Location: texas
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| Posted: Sat Mar 15, 2008 3:08 am Post subject: |
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BTW,
You are Baptist, do you know that most paptists are also calvinists? They believe predestination, OSAS and so on? |
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Viperlord
Joined: 19 Feb 2008
Posts: 77
Location: Somewhere beyond here...
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| Posted: Mon Mar 17, 2008 12:38 am Post subject: Re: Futile doctrine debate |
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| joyful wrote: |
| You will have confidence when you are serving Jesus with all your might. But Jesus is the final Judge of everyone. |
Confidence is easy to come by. It doesn't mean anything in itself.
| joyful wrote: |
| I believe people who are preaching the man-made doctrines are false prophets, including trinity. |
No, they might be false, but they aren't false prophets unless they claim to speak for God. The ones I know only claim to have understood God, not to have some new message.
| joyful wrote: |
BTW,
You are Baptist, do you know that most paptists are also calvinists? They believe predestination, OSAS and so on? |
I know that. But the church I attend has the core theology right, and they don't mind people questioning predestination, OSAS, etc. I don't recall any real discussion about the Trinity, so I don't know how they would react if someone questioned that.
Picking a church isn't like getting married - I can switch as soon as I find a better one.
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joyful
Joined: 30 Aug 2007
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Location: texas
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| Posted: Mon Mar 17, 2008 2:29 am Post subject: Re: Futile doctrine debate |
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Confidence is easy to come by. It doesn't mean anything in itself. |
I never had this much confidence before I became a believer.
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No, they might be false, but they aren't false prophets unless they claim to speak for God. The ones I know only claim to have understood God, not to have some new message. |
I disagree.
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I know that. But the church I attend has the core theology right, and they don't mind people questioning predestination, OSAS, etc. I don't recall any real discussion about the Trinity, so I don't know how they would react if someone questioned that. |
Baptists are vicious debaters when it comes to doctrins, especially trinity. I was called anti-christ and non-believer. Some followed me to other forums and harrassed me calling me heretic and anti-christ.
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| Picking a church isn't like getting married - I can switch as soon as I find a better one. |
I suggest staying out of organized churches. They train you to be hypocrites. |
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Viperlord
Joined: 19 Feb 2008
Posts: 77
Location: Somewhere beyond here...
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| Posted: Mon Mar 17, 2008 9:01 pm Post subject: Re: Futile doctrine debate |
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| joyful wrote: |
| I never had this much confidence before I became a believer. |
Well, I could do a lot of speculating as to why - but basically, people are confident about all kinds of things, some of which are ridiculous. Being confident is good, but it doesn't necessarily mean that you're right.
| joyful wrote: |
| Viperlord wrote: |
No, they might be false, but they aren't false prophets unless they claim to speak for God. The ones I know only claim to have understood God, not to have some new message. |
I disagree. |
Very well. The Bible isn't clear on this, so I'll use your words.
| joyful wrote: |
| Baptists are vicious debaters when it comes to doctrins, especially trinity. I was called anti-christ and non-believer. Some followed me to other forums and harrassed me calling me heretic and anti-christ. |
Hmmm... the Baptist denomination is so large and varied that it really should split into several. Even so, I can't be sure there aren't people like that in the church I attend. I've only attracted the attention of the intellectuals and wonderfully helpful people.
In my experience, the only people who respond well to being called a heretic aren't really heretics at all. So that word is only good as a warning, not an argument.
| joyful wrote: |
| I suggest staying out of organized churches. They train you to be hypocrites. |
For me, they give me ideas and friends. If I thought I needed to hide from bad theology, I would never have come here. 
I don't think organized churches are bad in themselves; often the pastor has some valuable insights, and when he doesn't, I find a new church.
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joyful
Joined: 30 Aug 2007
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Location: texas
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| Posted: Tue Mar 18, 2008 1:22 am Post subject: Re: Futile doctrine debate |
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| Viperlord wrote: |
| Being confident is good, but it doesn't necessarily mean that you're right. |
Ok, you are entitled to your opinions.
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Hmmm... the Baptist denomination is so large and varied that it really should split into several. Even so, I can't be sure there aren't people like that in the church I attend. I've only attracted the attention of the intellectuals and wonderfully helpful people. |
Ok, you are entitled to attend comfortable churches.
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| In my experience, the only people who respond well to being called a heretic aren't really heretics at all. So that word is only good as a warning, not an argument. |
Trinitarians call non-trinitarians as heretic, cult, non-believer or anti Christ.
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For me, they give me ideas and friends. If I thought I needed to hide from bad theology, I would never have come here. |
I still think you came here to convert me. You will not succeed because I am adamant anti trinitarians and I believer they are part of Babylon.
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| I don't think organized churches are bad in themselves; often the pastor has some valuable insights, and when he doesn't, I find a new church. |
I don't trust trinitarian pastors and preachers. They are wolves wearing sheeps clothing. |
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Viperlord
Joined: 19 Feb 2008
Posts: 77
Location: Somewhere beyond here...
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| Posted: Tue Mar 18, 2008 5:01 am Post subject: Re: Futile doctrine debate |
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| joyful wrote: |
| Trinitarians call non-trinitarians as heretic, cult, non-believer or anti Christ. |
Then they did wrong.
I think I will give up the label "Trinitarian." Given the level of misunderstanding of the Trinity (even I am not sure what it means), there is no point in claiming the Trinity in itself, even if I end up believing something similar. Henceforth I am neither Trinitarian nor anti-Trinitarian.
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joyful
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| Posted: Tue Mar 18, 2008 6:24 pm Post subject: Re: Futile doctrine debate |
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| Viperlord wrote: |
| joyful wrote: |
| Trinitarians call non-trinitarians as heretic, cult, non-believer or anti Christ. |
Then they did wrong.
I think I will give up the label "Trinitarian." Given the level of misunderstanding of the Trinity (even I am not sure what it means), there is no point in claiming the Trinity in itself, even if I end up believing something similar. Henceforth I am neither Trinitarian nor anti-Trinitarian. |
I give out the message the way it is. Trinitarians are wicked the way they misrepresenting Jesus as a whole. Ask your pastor what he says about non-trinitarians. Then come back to me.
I don't sugarcoat the reality, it seem that's what you want me to do. I will not do it. I am not conventional churchgoer and you will not going to pull down to their level, sorry. I am aiming high and not down. |
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Viperlord
Joined: 19 Feb 2008
Posts: 77
Location: Somewhere beyond here...
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| Posted: Tue Mar 18, 2008 11:33 pm Post subject: Re: Futile doctrine debate |
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| joyful wrote: |
| I give out the message the way it is. Trinitarians are wicked the way they misrepresenting Jesus as a whole. Ask your pastor what he says about non-trinitarians. Then come back to me. |
That is a good idea. But will the answer matter to you?
| joyful wrote: |
| I don't sugarcoat the reality, it seem that's what you want me to do. I will not do it. I am not conventional churchgoer and you will not going to pull down to their level, sorry. I am aiming high and not down. |
You are aiming into the void of space! Show me your fruit. Your confidence is power without direction.
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joyful
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| Posted: Tue Mar 18, 2008 11:51 pm Post subject: Re: Futile doctrine debate |
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| Viperlord wrote: |
That is a good idea. But will the answer matter to you? |
Because I know the answer and you pretend trinitarans are good guys.
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You are aiming into the void of space! Show me your fruit. Your confidence is power without direction. |
boy, you are in trouble. I don't have direction? You obviously wasting your time talking with me. You obviously dont know how to look for fruit either. You are typical church attender. Why are you here? You are not leraning anything from me. |
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Viperlord
Joined: 19 Feb 2008
Posts: 77
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| Posted: Wed Mar 19, 2008 12:42 am Post subject: Re: Futile doctrine debate |
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| joyful wrote: |
| Because I know the answer and you pretend trinitarans are good guys. |
Then you will call me a liar if I tell you an answer you don't expect.
| joyful wrote: |
| boy, you are in trouble. I don't have direction? You obviously wasting your time talking with me. You obviously dont know how to look for fruit either. |
I think it best that you tell me yourself.
| joyful wrote: |
| You are typical church attender. Why are you here? You are not leraning anything from me. |
I am learning things from you. But I learn actively - I do not necessarily learn what you seek to teach.
My first motive... shall remain sealed, for the time being.
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joyful
Joined: 30 Aug 2007
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| Posted: Wed Mar 19, 2008 1:04 am Post subject: Re: Futile doctrine debate |
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| Viperlord wrote: |
Then you will call me a liar if I tell you an answer you don't expect. |
At least I learn something about you.
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I think it best that you tell me yourself. |
The way you put it, you don't know how to look for fruit.
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I am learning things from you. But I learn actively - I do not necessarily learn what you seek to teach. |
you are not showing any improvement.
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| My first motive... shall remain sealed, for the time being. |
Why the secret? I am showing you all my hands without hiding anything. You know why I can do that? because I have nothing to worry no matter what. |
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Viperlord
Joined: 19 Feb 2008
Posts: 77
Location: Somewhere beyond here...
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| Posted: Wed Mar 19, 2008 1:31 am Post subject: Re: Futile doctrine debate |
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| joyful wrote: |
| At least I learn something about you. |
Ha ha... Well, perhaps I will try it anyway. It will not hurt me to be called a liar - you have done it often enough. 
| joyful wrote: |
| The way you put it, you don't know how to look for fruit. |
The way you put it, you don't either. I have seen more bad fruit than good, but a little good as well. There is only so much I can see over the Internet; but I understand if you are not willing to boast.
| joyful wrote: |
| you are not showing any improvement. |
Do you read everything that I say?
| joyful wrote: |
| Why the secret? I am showing you all my hands without hiding anything. You know why I can do that? because I have nothing to worry no matter what. |
The reason for the secret is part of the secret. 
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joyful
Joined: 30 Aug 2007
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| Posted: Wed Mar 19, 2008 2:31 am Post subject: Re: Futile doctrine debate |
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| Viperlord wrote: |
Ha ha... Well, perhaps I will try it anyway. It will not hurt me to be called a liar - you have done it often enough. |
there you go, now you are getting it.
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The way you put it, you don't either. I have seen more bad fruit than good, but a little good as well. There is only so much I can see over the Internet; but I understand if you are not willing to boast. |
My threads, posts, and most of all my testimony; you still asking abut my fruit.
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Do you read everything that I say? |
You have written quite a lot.
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| the reason for the secret is part of the secret. |
You don't have much confidence what you are doing. |
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Viperlord
Joined: 19 Feb 2008
Posts: 77
Location: Somewhere beyond here...
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| Posted: Thu Mar 20, 2008 3:44 am Post subject: Re: Futile doctrine debate |
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| joyful wrote: |
| My threads, posts, and most of all my testimony; you still asking abut my fruit. |
I see both good fruit and bad fruit... faithfulness and joy you have, but I do not see peace and patience, at least not in your dealings with Trinitarians.
| joyful wrote: |
| You have written quite a lot. |
True. I don't mind you ignoring stuff; I just don't want you claiming you know all about me when you don't even know everything I've told you.
| joyful wrote: |
| You don't have much confidence what you are doing. |
Well... that doesn't matter. My mind is set as far as that goes, I'm afraid.
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joyful
Joined: 30 Aug 2007
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| Posted: Thu Mar 20, 2008 12:15 pm Post subject: Re: Futile doctrine debate |
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| Viperlord wrote: |
I see both good fruit and bad fruit... faithfulness and joy you have, but I do not see peace and patience, at least not in your dealings with Trinitarians. |
Trinitarians are willfully disgraceing Jesus. I dont agree with any of them. Of course you will not like it.
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True. I don't mind you ignoring stuff; I just don't want you claiming you know all about me when you don't even know everything I've told you. |
I know you well enough. Your position of Trinity and the military says a lot about you. That is good enough for Jesus' servant to know. |
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